§ 2.55 p.m.
The Countess of LOUDOUNMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any plans to provide more suitable accommodation for the 8,000 children who though physically fit are now in hospitals for the mentally handicapped.
§ Lords WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the latest figures available indicate that there were some 6,000 children under the age of 16 in such hospitals in England at 31st December, 1972. At least half of these children have some form of physical or psychiatric disability in addition to their mental handicap, and for a large number of these children—one regrets having to say it—specialist hospital services will continue to be required. There are, however, a significant number of mentally handicapped children whose needs might be met much better if they were in the community. Local authorities are aware of this and are anxious to increase as fast as is possible the number of residential homes. Projects which have been provisionally approved for the coming financial year, 1975–76, should increase by some 250 the number of places available.
The Countess of LOUDOUNMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether it be the fact that these children seem to have been left out of our developing patterns of child care, being children who have little or no contact with their parents, and a proportion of whom might with considerable advantage be cared for in foster homes, hostels or children's homes run by local authorities? Would not the Minister agree that a hospital ward is not a place in which to bring up a child, and that, although we are aware of their handicap, we seem to have forgotten that they are children? Are not these children living in a physical environment which would not be tolerated for any other child in care, being looked after in a medical nursing atmosphere instead of in homes geared to child care, which we know offers them better care? Are not these children often denied the education which is their right and which they must have if they are to develop their potential?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, we would not disagree with anything the noble Countess has said. We readily acknowledge that some 4,600 places are needed for mentally handicapped children who can return to live in the community. It must, however, be borne in mind that a large number have other difficulties which make this impossible. We recognise that community living is much better for them, and this is why some pressure is being put on local authorities to pro812 vide the necessary places; but, again, they have got to be within the community where they are in touch with shops and people and other things that go on in the community. They have got to be in small groups of, say, 20. That is an expensive exercise, but it is one that society must face when it has the means to do it.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, may I ask a question about hospital special schools? How do the Government collect their information on the number of places available in hospital special schools, at which presumably many of these children referred to in the Question would, if possible, attend?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I cannot tell the noble Lord how the information is collected. I will find out and let him know.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether we are really working on statistics of December 1972 in a case of this nature? Is it not possible to get some more up-to-date information? What is the Department going to do about it?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, not only the Department that I speak for, but every Government Department, as the noble Lord will know, tries to get as much up-to-date information as possible. But for various reasons there are delays. We heard a short time ago that there was a tremendous hold-up in one place because of successive computer difficulties. I am not saying that computer difficulties are to blame here, but I agree that we do not want to work on 1972 figures if we can work on those for 1974.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, is it not possible that we are dealing with an entirely different set of children if we are that much out of date?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, obviously this is a matter that I shall look into, as the noble Lord has raised it. It is an interesting one, and there ought to be an answer.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, we are grateful for the information which the noble Lord has given. Is he aware that he is, I think, answering a question on which the Department of Education and 813 Science has a statutory duty? When the noble Lord refers to the "Department", may I ask him whether he is referring to the Department of Education or to the Department of Health and Social Security? He said in his reply that 250 new places are to be provided in the forthcoming year, and by whom are they being paid for—by the hospitals or by education?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, they are provided under the Education (Handicapped Children) Act 1970.
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that there are occasions when the abacus is more efficient than the computer, and that when one is dealing with numbers as small as 8,000 the computer is a highly inefficient way of correlating the data?