§ 3.0 p.m.
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the total amount of aid they have allocated to developing countries for the next financial year.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the White Paper on public expenditure shows that in 1974 survey prices the Government have allocated £339.6 million for their net expenditure on the overseas aid programme in the next financial year. This figure will be revalued to take account of price changes since the 1974 Survey was compiled.
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, may I ask her how much of that aid is an outright gift and how much is in the form of non-interest bearing loans?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I could not give the noble Viscount accurate figures for the projected financial year, but in 1973, 61 per cent. of our total commitments were in the form of grants and 69 per cent. were loans which were interest free.
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that reply, may I ask her whether she agrees that in the present economic condition of this country, and bearing in mind our very large balance of payments deficit, in regard to interest free loans the old adage that charity begins at home would be the best policy to adopt?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I am sure the majority of noble Lords will agree that although we are suffering economic difficulties, for these developing countries the economic situation means desperate hardship and real suffering, and in those terms we are still a wealthy country. I am sure the House would want us to play our part in the international programme for aiding the poorest countries.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, am I right in assuming that the figures my noble friend gave do not include private investment, the returns on which are twice as much as the aid that we give? Do her figures reach the 0. 7 per cent. of the gross national product which is our aim in this respect?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, my noble friend is right in assuming that these figures do not include private investment. I would not attempt to say whether his second point is in fact accurate. Unlike our predecessors in Government, we have accepted the 0. 7 per cent. as a target. We have not achieved it; it depends on our own economic situation, but we are trying our best.
§ Lord LLOYD of KILGERRANMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she is in a position to say how 641 these figures of aid by our country compare with the total aid being directed from the EEC?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, not without notice. I can say that because of the efforts of my right honourable friend the Minister of Overseas Development there will be a greater amount of aid available for the new associated countries than there ever has been before.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is it possible for my noble friend to give a breakdown of the figures, not necessarily by furnishing the answer now because they may not be available at this moment, but either by publishing them in the Official Report or by placing them in the Library?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, if my noble friend means the figures for the future financial year that might take some time, but I will certainly hope to do it in due course.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, what I am asking my noble friend to do is to give a breakdown showing to which countries the aid is being directed.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEYes, my Lords.
§ Earl COWLEYMy Lords, could the noble Baroness say whether the figures that she gave in the original Answer included the 18. 7 per cent. contribution to which this country agreed under the Lomé Convention? Also, would she not agree that it is in Britain's own interest, as a major exporting country, that we should help to develop the economies of these developing countries?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEYes, indeed, my Lords, I confirm what the the noble Earl has said. It does come out of the total aid allocation of this country. Also it is indeed in Britain's interests, because about two-thirds of our aid is bilateral which means that much of it is used to buy British goods and services. This is tremendously to the advantage of this country, and, as the noble Earl said, builds up the economies of the developing countries which, in purely selfish terms, means markets for the future.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness could clear up one point which puzzled me in the original Answer. I understood her to say that 61 per cent. were grants and 69 per cent. were interest free loans, which added together make 130 per cent. Does she in fact mean that 69 per cent. of the loans were interest free loans? What is the true explanation of this superficial confusion.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I have not the faintest idea, but I promise to write to the noble and learned Lord and let him know.
Lord HAWKEMy Lords, would it not be better if instead of lending this money interest free it was given under lend-lease terms, because so many of these countries will never in any ordinary circumstances be able to repay the loans or the interest thereon?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, it is a very interesting question. In fact, we now have about £40 million of amortisation money which we get back on loans each year, so I do not think what the noble Lord said is really correct.
§ Lord PEDDIEMy Lords, could my noble friend confirm or deny the truth of the statement made by my noble friend from this side of the House, that the return from investment in the developing countries is greater than the total amount of aid which is given? I should like to know whether or not that statement is correct.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I did reply to that question. It is a different point. I should not like to confirm the accuracy of the estimate of my noble friend Lord Brockway.
§ Lord MERRIVALEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness this question? As the Lomé Convention will be signed in a few days' time, is it the intention of Her Majesty's Government to increase the percentage of aid to the 18 countries plus Mauritius—the original Yaoundé Convention countries? As I understand it, in 643 the past not more than 1 per cent. was allocated to those countries. In view of the increasing economic, cultural and social contacts with those countries, do Her Majesty's Government feel that a greater percentage of aid might be made to those countries in the coming year?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, in the first place, I am sure the whole House would wish to send its sympathy to the Government of Mauritius for the recent disaster which has struck them in the form of a cyclone. May I add that as the Lomé Convention has not even been signed, I cannot possibly say what allocations have been made to the new associates. We all know the deep interest of the noble Lord opposite in this question, and I will keep him informed.
§ Earl COWLEYMy Lords, since the Government accept the need to grant aid to the developing countries on the basis of need, does the noble Baroness think that this will alter the amount of aid going to the Commonwealth countries as compared with any outside countries?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, this, again, is a very difficult question to answer in advance. As I said, the Lomé Convention has not even been signed. I am quite sure the noble Earl knows that there is a continuous review of where aid is most needed. I think that is the best answer to his question.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I endorse—?
§ Several Noble Lords: No, No!
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL: (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, if the noble Baroness wishes to ask a question I would ask the House to allow her. But may I suggest that it be the last, because nine minutes is a very long time to spend on one Question.