§ 2.39 p.m.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether guidance is given to traffic wardens as to what can be considered a reasonable time to allow householders to park in restricted streets when engaged in loading or unloading personal luggage and whether the time allowed takes into account the variable distance between residence and nearest parking point.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, traffic wardens are instructed in the provisions of the local traffic regulation orders they are employed to enforce. These orders are generally made by local authorities and their terms vary; I understand that in London they commonly permit vehicles to wait in restricted streets other than clearways for so long as may be necessary for the purpose of loading or unloading personal luggage.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, arising from that reply, may I say that I regret I am not clear as to what the Minister said. Did he say that in certain circumstances and in certain localities a householder would be unable to load luggage into his car and that it depends on the local authority as to whether they are so permitted?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am saying that on clearways, for example, a car is permitted to remain for only two minutes. So far as other restricted areas in London are concerned, traffic wardens have been told that if a private car is obviously parked for the purpose of loading or unloading, then they are permitted to allow the owner some grace. In the unloading or loading 4 of large vehicles such latitude could be up to about 20 minutes. It is very much at the discretion of the warden whether or not he puts a ticket on a vehicle in a restricted area.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, leaving out the question of clearways, may I ask whether the Minister agrees that reasonable tolerance should be allowed to householders to load their own luggage? Will he ensure that the need for such tolerance is made known, down the line, to all traffic wardens?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I thought that I had made the point clear: tolerance is permitted, provided the warden can see the purpose of it. If it is obvious that a vehicle is being loaded or unloaded, then he is permitted to accept that position, provided it does not go on for an interminable period.
§ Lord ROYLEMy Lords, may I ask whether one's wife is included in the loading and unloading? Or is she not luggage but baggage?
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, may I ask whether my noble friend would agree that there seems to be very harsh treatment, for example, in Cartwright Gardens, where they have private hotels and where even a hotelier is not allowed to park his car in front of his hotel unless he pays the penalty or the charge which has been imposed by the local authority? Does my noble friend not think that that is a case of harsh treatment?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, it is not really for me to express an opinion, but I should not have thought that that was unreasonable. After all, householders and hoteliers do not own the roadway. It is for the convenience of the travelling public, and if it is a restricted area it is subject to the regulations. I would repeat that if wardens can see that a car is being loaded or unloaded, they are expected to give a certain amount of tolerance.
The Earl of HALSBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that once a warden has put pencil to paper and initiated a ticket, a process as remorseless as a Greek tragedy has set in, and that though one may arrive in the middle of this process, and though the warden would have exercised due grace had she 5 known that one was unloading, nothing can be done about it? Must we all be victims indefinitely of this purely bureaucratic process?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am not sure that the noble Lord is correct in what he says. It is true that once the ticket is made out and placed on one's windscreen, one has the option either of paying the penalty or of not paying and leaving it to a court to decide. But if a member of the public feels aggrieved by virtue of the fact that a ticket has been left on his windscreen, he can write to the police setting out the position and, if his explanation appears reasonable, the matter will be withdrawn.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, can the noble Lord say what percentage of traffic penalties not paid are subsequently found not guilty in the magistrates' courts?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I cannot do that. I did not come prepared for that at all.