THE TURNER BEQUEST (Hansard, 10 February 1975)

§ Lord REIGATE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord STRABOLGI
My Lords, as already announced by my honourable friend the Minister for the Arts in another place on 23rd July last, the Fine Rooms in Somerset House are to be the home of the new Theatre Museum.

§ Lord REIGATE
My Lords, while expressing gratitude to the noble Lord for that information, which I think was already fairly well-known, may I ask whether he has noticed that since then there have been many expressions of opinion that this site is not suitable for the Theatre Museum, in view of the absence of storage space, and that there are suggestions that the National Theatre Museum would do better in another site such as Covent Garden? Will Her Majesty's Government consider negotiating on that subject with the GLC?

§ Lord STRABOLGI
My Lords, the Government's commitment stems from the announcement made on behalf of the Secretary of State for the Environment and the Paymaster General of the previous Administration in reply to a Question in another place on 24th May 1973. This decision is supported by the present Government.

The EARL of HALSBURY
My Lords, could the noble Lord undertake on behalf of Her Majesty's Government 1074 that, before the pros and cons of either reopening or not reopening this issue are considered, the matter will be referred to the Standing Commision on Museums and Galleries, which is the properly appointed body competent to advise Her Majesty's Government on any matter of this kind?

§ Lord STRABOLGI
My Lords, I will certainly bring what was said by the noble Earl to the attention of my honourable friend. I may say that even among art experts it is arguable whether works of art of one painter are better shown en masse, in contrast to being set in the historical context of art in their time. This is not a matter on which the Government would wish to form a view.

The Earl of HALSBURY
My Lords, although that may be true, would the noble Lord agree that Her Majesty's Government have advisers in this matter, and some very interesting suggestions as to alternative disposal of Somerset House are now in the public domain, to the point where it has been the subject of the noble Lord's Question this afternoon?

§ Lord STRABOLGI
My Lords, design work is now proceeding on the project for the Theatre Museum to open at Somerset House in the middle of next year. The present cost of this, of course, would be far less than if, for example, it went to the floral market at Covent Garden, which is an alternative suggestion; this would cost, including air conditioning, about half a million pounds.

§ Viscount NORWICH
My Lords, are the Government aware that the British Theatre Museum, of which for over 10 years I had the honour to be Chairman, are deeply grateful to successive Govern-ments—this Government and its predeces-sor—for having made available these marvellous rooms at Somerset House? They would be equally grateful if some other alternative site could be found which, although perhaps not so classically beautiful, might be even more suitable for their purpose, but unless and until such a building is found the Theatre Museum, which has existed for some 20 years with-out any roof at all over its head and working on a budget of some £5,000 a year, must ask that its prior claim be respected.

§ Lord STRABOLGI
Yes, my Lords, I am sure the Government are very grateful for what the noble Viscount has said. There is at present no national Theatre Museum. This Museum will bring together very splendid collections from the Victoria and Albert Museum and Leighton House, as well as the Diaghilev collection recently acquired for the nation and the Enthoven collection. I may say, with regard to Somerset House and the Turners, that it is not considered suitable. For one thing the floors are too weak to sustain large crowds; secondly, the windows are too large; and, thirdly, there is far too much plaster work on the walls to allow many of the 19,000 paintings to be hung.

§ Baroness LEE of ASHERIDGE
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I take his point that it might not be desirable to have the entire works of Turner gathered together in one collection? But would he agree that it would be a wonderful experience for us to have them all collected? Then we might be able to allocate them to various Embassies abroad and to other public buildings. Would he also agree with me that it really is disgraceful that so many of them are being kept in permanent storage?

§ Lord STRABOLGI
My Lords, as my noble friend is aware, of course, from the time when she was Minister, the Turner paintings are the property of the Trustees of the national Institutions, to whom they were given as a result of the settlement of Turner's will, and by whom they are effectively cared for and shown. The Government have no power to deprive those Trustees of their holdings, and they have no intention to seek such powers. Indeed, I may say it would need legislation; it would mean changing the National Gallery and Tate Gallery Act 1954 and the British Museum Act 1963. Going on the attitude of the Chairman of the Trustees of the National Gallery, when they were asked to loan six of their important Turners, including "The Fighting Téméraire", to the exhibition at Burlington House and refused to loan them even for temporary exhibition, I doubt whether they would be prepared to give up their holdings for permanent display somewhere else.

§ Baroness LEE of ASHERIDGE
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I man- 1076 aged to prise one splendid Turner painting for one of our embassies abroad? It may not be right to assume that either the Tate or National Galleries will be permanently deaf to the appeal that Turners, which they themselves are not in a position to present to the public, should be loaned, if not permanently for substantial periods, to other public buildings at home and abroad.

§ Lord STRABOLGI
Yes, my Lords. Certainly, under the National Gallery and Tate Gallery Act 1954 it is possible for Turners to be loaned to museums and embassies abroad. Indeed during the term of my noble friend's office I think there were two Turners in the British Embassy in Washington and one in the British Embassy in Paris. I may say that I think Turner's work will benefit greatly from the extension to the National Gallery, which is to open this year, to the Tate Gallery, which is to open next year, and to the British Museum which is in the planning stage. All of these will enable us to show far more of Turner's work.

§ Lord SLATER
My Lords, will my noble friend agree with me that we are supposed to be representing what is known as the United Kingdom? Is he aware that we are constantly being reminded in this House that we are representative of the United Kingdom? In view of his answer in regard to the site, may I ask what investigation took place to see whether a suitable site could be found for this national collection outside the metropolis?

§ Lord STRABOLGI
My Lords, we try to disperse Turner's works as much as possible, and there are, I am glad to say, some in the National Gallery of Scotland. With regard to my noble friend's interesting point that we should look at other sites for a Turner museum, the Government are not persuaded that a Turner museum is in the best interests of Turner.

§ Lord REIGATE
My Lords, when the noble Lord refers to the fact that the site in Somerset House is not suitable for large crowds, is he anticipating that there will be only minimum attendance for the national Theatre Museum? Would he also please give reconsideration to the plea of the noble Earl, Lord 1077 Halsbury, and ask the Standing Commission to look at this whole matter again? It is a question not just of the Turners, but of the best use of these rooms.

§ Lord STRABOLGI
My Lords, with regard to the noble Lord's first point, the question of the floors at Somerset House, they will not be strong enough to hold large crowds. It is intended to put show cases in the middle of the floors, which I am informed are far lighter and will not take up so much weight. On the second point, of course we will take note of what the noble Earl has said, as we always take note of what noble Lords say in all parts of the House, but I may say that the Government do not intend to go back on their commit-ment.