HL Deb 06 February 1975 vol 356 cc987-8

3.29 p.m.

Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGH

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair]

Clause 1 [Option to purchase property of educational foundation by local communities] :

On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord ELTON

I wish to detain the Committee only briefly at this stage, but I think your Lordships will agree that we left the Second Reading of this Bill under the impression that there were to be conversations between the Promoters of the Bill and the representatives of the Church Commissioners under, one hoped, the aegis of the Government. Since no amendments have since been tabled to the Bill, and since at that stage the Government said that the Bill was unacceptable, I should like to know what conversations have in fact taken place.

The MINISTER of STATE, DEPART-MENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Lord Crowther-Hunt)

We noted at the end of the Second Reading debate the proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, that such conversations should take place. The view of the Government was that they would take no part in those consultations, but that if they got under way and proposals emerged from them we should consider very carefully what the new proposals might be.

Lord ELTON

One must therefore take it that the consultations have not taken place. But if we refer to the debate which took place on 3rd December last, we find that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester said he had made inquiries and was satisfied that the Church authorities concerned would be most willing to hold a conference with representatives of the Secretary of State, in order to see what could be done to meet what this House has already shown to be a strongly held point of view. Therefore, it seems to me that the intention was voiced, that the opportunity existed, and that nothing has happened.

I said that it seemed to me that if nothing happened the impression would be clearly left in the country that, in a matter which is of much wider concern than is possibly generally realised in this House, the Church Commissioners, if not being obstructive, were at least suffering from inertia. If this process continues, the impression will not be of inertia but of obstructionism, and this is not an opinion which ought to be generally held. I should like a representative from the Bishops' Bench, or the noble Lord opposite, to assure the House that this is a matter of concern which is not being brushed aside like some mosquito. This is the fourth time that this matter has been brought before the House.

Lord CROWTHER-HUNT

So far as this side of the House and the Government are concerned, we have made it clear that we do not propose to take any initiative in this matter. It is therefore up to noble Lords who support the Bill to take whatever initiative they may wish to take in the way of discussions. We shall be very pleased to receive any proposals which may emerge from these discussions.

Lord ELTON

Will it be acceptable to the Government, if those proposals can be incorporated before the Report stage, for them to be taken in this House, rather than that the Bill should go in its present form to another place?

Lord CROWTHER-HUNT

I am not as fully acquainted with the procedures of this House as I should like to be, in view of my very short experience here. If that were acceptable to the House, we on this side would raise no objection.

Lord ELTON

I am much obliged.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.