§ 2.58 p.m.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the conclusions reached regarding reforms in Hong Kong as a result of the visit of the Lord Goronwy-Roberts.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, during my visit I was able to see at first hand the progress that is being made in reforming the social and economic structure of Hong Kong. I am impressed by the energy with which the Governor 752 and his advisers are tackling the very difficult problems that face them.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether his investigations included two points? First, is he satisfied with the efforts which are being made to stop corruption, particularly in the police? Secondly, did he investigate social security under which at present no man between the ages of 15 and 55 can obtain a benefit if he is able-bodied, and where disastrous waiting periods occur before anyone obtains a benefit at all?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, on the first question raised by my noble friend, an Independent Commission against Corruption was established by the present Governor in February 1974. I had the opportunity of discussing their work with members of the Commission, and formed the firm opinion that they were determined to pursue an investigation which in due course will cleanse the Colony of the undoubtedly widespread corruption that exists there now. A very satisfactory feature of the situation is that since the Commission was established a few months ago there has been general popular co-operation in a practical way with it. Three thousand reports have been received from the public by the Commission during those few months. The Commission has already scored a number of significant advances in its work. We strongly support this work. We shall, of course, keep a very close watch over the progress of this inquiry and stand ready to intervene in any way that may be needed if the circumstances warrant it.
On the question of social and labour legislation, the Hong Kong Government are pursuing a programme of continuous improvement in labour legislation. In the social field, in some respects they are ahead of what might be called more advanced countries in dealing with juvenile delinquency, the rehabilitation and retraining of young people, and also in the attack made upon the drug problem. A number of social benefits have been introduced in the past few years, including severance pay and measures to reduce permissible overtime so as to protect young people and women, and consideration is now being actively given 753 to further measures of the type which my noble friend has mentioned.
§ Lord ROYLEMy Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend could enlarge upon his impressions with regard to the housing situation in Hong Kong. All those of us who have been there know how appallingly bad it has always been.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, indeed, my Lords. The record of achievement in housing is perhaps the most outstanding feature of the work of the present Governor and of the Hong Kong Government in the past few years. Already some 2 million out of a total population of a little over 4 million have been rehoused in public housing estates, and the projected programme, which I saw for myself, is being vigorously prosecuted and will within the next decade house something like a further 2 million people. This, jointly with progress in the private sector, should mean by about 1985 that nearly 4 million out of a population of about 4½ million will have been rehoused by the Hong Kong Government.
§ Earl COWLEYMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether any progress has been made towards the removal of EEC restrictions on textiles coming in from Hong Kong, and the inclusion of those textiles under the EEC's generalised scheme of preferences? Can the noble Lord also say whether that topic was discussed in his talks with the Hong Kong Government and, if so, with what results?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I did indeed discuss those very important matters on the spot with the Government of Hong Kong and with industrialists concerned with these questions. I was able to give a full assurance that as in the past year in discussions on the GSP, so in the current year, 1975, we shall pursue by every possible means efforts to safeguard and, if possible, to improve the position of Hong Kong under the GSP with regard to those very vital industries.
§ Lord BLYTONMy Lords, I am wondering whether my noble friend visited the naval establishment in Hong Kong? We have paid a colossal price 754 for a very small naval protection. Does my noble friend not think that it would be better to leave Hong Kong and keep Singapore?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I had talks with the Officer Commanding. At the same time, talks were proceeding at official level about the renegotiation of the present Defence Agreement between us and the Dependency. That Agreement will expire in March 1976. In the meantime, I have every reason to expect that a mutually satisfactory new Agreement will be concluded.
§ Lord LLOYD of KILGERRANMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether his inquiries concerned the urgent matter of modifications to the basic procedure for the appointment of officers in the higher ranks of the police force in Hong Kong?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, my right honourable friend has nominated a personal representative to the body which supervises the recruitment of officers and other ranks into the Hong Kong police.
§ Lord ROBBINSMy Lords, I wonder whether in the course of his visit the noble Lord had the opportunity of seeing the progress which is being made in the provision of higher education by the two splendid universities in that area.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I visited both universities and had very interesting talks with the faculties of both. They are indeed making a tremendous contribution to the higher education of the Colony. Indeed, one of them, the Chinese University, is setting up a second medical school. As my noble friend well knows, the first one has a very high reputation not only in the Far East but further afield. Progress in higher education is very satisfactory. However, I took the opportunity to impress upon the authorities the importance of expanding technical education at the polytechnic or technical college level.
§ Lord HARVEY of PRESTBURYMy Lords, the Hong Kong Government are to be congratulated upon rehousing their people. Could not this Government pick up a few tips from them on how to go about it?
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether the influx of political refugees from Communist China to Hong Kong is still continuing, and what restrictions have been placed upon their entry by the Hong Kong Government?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, until 1967 there was a system of controlling immigration, especially illegal immigration. This lapsed for some years, so that by 1973 the number of immigrants, about half of them illegal, amounted to something like 74,000. This created very grave social and other difficulties in a small area which was already populated by more than 4 million people. In the past few months, therefore, there have been talks with the Chinese authorities across the border with a view to restricting immigration, especially illegal immigration. However, the case of every individual who is apprehended is scrutinised carefully, with a view to determining whether his or her return will cause undue hardship for one or other reason, including the kind of reason which my noble friend has raised.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that I greatly appreciate the full reply which he has made to my supplementary question about corruption? However, is the noble Lord also aware that he did not reply to the two points which I made about social security? Does he know that I have in my hand a letter from the Welfare Department of the Government of Hong Kong which says that no person between 15 and 55 years of age who is able-bodied is permitted to have an unemployment allowance, although unemployment now reaches 200,000 in that area? Is he also aware
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I am not aware that I am out of order.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I am putting two concrete questions. Is the Minister also aware that I have in my hand letters from those who have had to wait three months before they have received benefits under the present security arrangements?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think I did refer to that part of my noble friend's first supplementary question when I said that the kind of point that he had referred to was constantly being examined, and is indeed being examined now by the Hong Kong Government. As to the specific instances he has given, I am perfectly ready to take them up and look into them, but I can assure him once more that the Government of Hong Kong are constantly examining ways of improving the social service and social benefits system in the Colony.
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, may I suggest that we should now move to the next Question? I think that 12 minutes is an over long period for any Question in your Lordships' House.