§ 2.46 p.m.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows.
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government on what criteria they are selecting the schemes of comprehensive reorganisation which will qualify for capital authorisation within the provision of £25 million made for that purpose in the school building programme for 1976–77, by what date they expect to complete the schemes not so selected and what arrangements will be made to pay for schemes which have not yet 1434 been submitted for authorisation, but which are otherwise acceptable.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Lord Crowther-Hunt)My Lords, the criteria for projects to be considered for this special programme for England and Wales are that they should either enable reorganisation to proceed which could not be implemented in any other way, or enable reorganisation to be fully effective in educational terms, and that all necessary expenditure should be capable of completion before the end of March 1978. Selection of those eligible to start is being made by my right honourable friends in the light of authorities' priorities, the merits of each case and the aim of a fair distribution.
Separately from this special programme, authorities receive annual lump sum authorisations for school building. The speed with which, within these, progress will be possible with projects serving the purpose of those unable to find a place in the special programme, or not submitted for it although needed for reorganisation, will depend on the pressure of other urgent school building needs.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. Since, even with the provision of the lump sum, the cash will not be to hand for some time for embarking on a great number of these schemes, may I ask him whether schemes that are frozen for lack of cash will be variable before they are put into motion or whether they will be frozen entirely for a number of years until they can be embarked upon?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, the question of freezing does not arise. As I tried to make clear in my first Answer, the special projects will not constitute the sole contribution of school building to secondary reorganisation. My right honourable friends naturally expect authorities to make the fullest use of existing facilities and to deploy the school building resources made available for general purposes. For the year 1976–77, the sum for authorisations will be over £140 million in addition to the £25 million I have mentioned. Local authorities will deploy the school building resources which are available for general purposes in ways which will assist the elimination 1435 of selection. However, Her Majesty's Government naturally hope that the special allocation will mean a welcome boost for authorities who are thus enabled to get on more quickly than would otherwise be the case.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord saying that there will be £145 million beyond the £25 million already allocated, making £170 million to be devoted to this exclusive purpose?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTNo, my Lords, that is not what I said. I said that, in addition to the £25 million which was specially earmarked to assist in removing log jams in comprehensive reorganisation and providing special facilities in the way that I answered the noble Lord about two weeks ago, there was available, nevertheless, for primary and secondary school building the authorisation of another £140 million as a normal part of the process to be used in accordance with local authorities' own priorities for building needs and replacements. No doubt local authorities will take this into account in their reorganisation programmes.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, in view of the careful political research which the noble Lord, Lord Elton, has put into this Question, would it not be a good idea for the Department to provide him with a computer for his personal use, or perhaps a manual of computerology?
§ Baroness BROOKE of YSTRADFELLTEMy Lords, will Her Majesty's Government be prepared to reprieve those voluntary aided and direct grant schools for which no money or insufficient money will be available for the enlargement and provision of the new accommodation that is necessary to ensure success in their transfer from the selected to the non-selected sector?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, that is a rather different question.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, did I hear the noble Lord aright, that the money which is the subject of this Question must be spent before March 1978? If this is correct, is there any chance of the programme being topped up in the year 1977–78.
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, the noble Lord did hear correctly, that the money for this special programme is to be spent by March 1978. It is not the intention that in present circumstances there should be any addition to this programme.
§ Baroness BACONMy Lords, if I may refer to the misunderstanding by the noble Lord about the school building programme, is not it a fact that any part of the £140 million to be spent on secondary schools is a contribution towards the building of comprehensive schools, and that, to that extent, the £25 million will in fact be greatly augmented by a good deal of the share of the £140 million? Is he not pleased to find the great concern which the noble Lord has to speed up the building of comprehensive schools?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, drawing, as she does, on her special expertise in these matters, naturally my noble friend Lady Bacon is broadly accurate, about the interpretation she has put on my answers. I should stress also in this context that when talking about sums being available, and payments being available, as it were, as I explained on 3rd December, we are talking about capital authorisations. Capital authorisations are not grants.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that it is not a different question to ask whether the schools for which the money is not available in the immediate future are still to be pressed to agree to schemes which are not satisfactory to either party, or to the children? And if this is the same question, would the noble Lord not agree that he ought to advise local education authorities, in particular the ILEA, to take the pressure off the boards of governors to agree precipitately, when they are trying, with the best will in the world, to do the best for the children and to meet the philosophic views of the Government, to which I do not personally subscribe?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, it is the opinion of the noble Lord, Lord Elton, and not of Her Majesty's Government, that sufficient funds are not available for this purpose.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, may we ask the noble Lord how long this programme is likely to last?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords the special programme lasts until, and the special money has to be spent by, March 1978. The speed of comprehensive reorganisation over the country as a whole will go at the pace at which resources allow. As the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, will know, a Bill on this subject is to be introduced in another place later this afternoon. May I just say that comprehensive reorganisation has already gone a very long way. Perhaps I might just point to some of the figures in that respect. In January 1965, there were 239,619 pupils in 262 comprehensive schools in England and Wales covering 8.6 per cent. of the total secondary school population. By January 1975, there were 2,457,031 pupils in 2,593 comprehensive schools covering 67.9 per cent. of the secondary population. Over the same period, the number of grammar schools and secondary modern schools fell from 1,285 and 3,727 respectively in 1965 to 566 and 1,216 respectively in 1975.
§ Baroness BROOKE of YSTRADFELLTEMy Lords, can the noble Lord, Lord Crowther-Hunt, tell us how many of these schools to which he has referred, apart from the building of new comprehensive schools, are part of "botched-up" schemes joining two or three schools together, with some mileage between them, in order to come under the heading of "comprehensive school"?
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords opposite for taking such an interest in promoting comprehensive education. This is something which I very much applaud. We have been very gratified at the co-operation received from Conservative local education authorities in the progress towards comprehensive education. We do not regard any of these schemes as being "botched-up"
§ Several Noble Lords: Answer the question!
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we do not regard that as an answer, but as a statement of a view? 1438 Is he also aware that we resent the imputation that we are concerned only with political shibboleths and organisation? We are concerned with children. I ask the noble Lord to accept that we are anxious that proper provision should be made for these children, and that schemes should not be rushed through or ill-considered. That is what the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte, and I have been pursuing in this matter. I hope the noble Lord will take note of our feelings.
§ Lord CROWTHER-HUNTMy Lords, that is also our objective. We are making this £25 million available to produce just this state of affairs.
§ Lord BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that we on these Benches are fighting against the privilege of the opposite side?