§ 2.41 p.m.
§ Lord TRANMIREMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what compensation has been offered ill respect of the loss suffered on 11th June 1974 by the Green Howards, who were then serving in Northern Ireland, from the destruction of their band equipment and personal effects as a result of a terrorist attack on Strensall Camp.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the Green Howards band was at Strensall Camp, York, when the terrorist bomb attack occurred, and the band's instruments and equipment, and individual bandsmen's own instuments and private property, were lost. Her Majesty's Government paid £2,484 to the bandsmen. I understand that £9,100 was received by the band from its insurers. In addition, the Army Central (Non Public) Fund has given the band an interest-free loan of £7,500 repayable over eight years beginning in 1978, to be used to pay outstanding bills and to make good the losses of music and accoutrements.
§ Lord TRANMIREMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. May I ask him to explain why it is that when regimental property, of a regimenton active service in Northern Ireland, is on protected and occupied Ministry of Defence premises in the United Kingdom and is there destroyed by IRA terrorist attack, Her Majesty's Government have not given one penny of compensation for its loss and does he not think that mean?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I said that Her Majesty's Government have paid £2,484 to individual bandsmen who lost some of their equipment. May I say that this is not a closed matter. At this moment three Members of Parliament and the Colonel of the Regiment are seeing my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence to discuss various other aspects of the question.
§ Lord MAYBRAY-KINGMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it would be a very small thing to Her Majesty's Government, but a big thing to the Green Howards, if we met the cost of the loss of their instruments through defending honour and integrity in Northern Ireland?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the noble Lord is, of course, expressing the feeling of us all. However, the situation is that the estimated cost of replacement, if all the instruments were bought as new, is £00,000, but many instruments can of course be bought for less money than the figure in question. It is the view of Her Majesty's Government, as it is mine, that they have not been ungenerous, and further funds may be available following upon the discussions which are taking place at this moment with the Secretary of State.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, does this mean that those who have to use machine-guns and rifles against terrorist attack, or in anticipation of terrorist attack, should insure them, because there is some danger of the Government's not compensating them in the event of loss or damage? After all, is not this equipment which is regarded as quite regular in the Forces? In those circumstances, why are the Government so mean about this matter, when they are contemplating spending vast sums of money for Chrysler? Why cannot they spend a few shillings in order to compensate these men?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government are paying a few thousand pounds to compensate individual bandsmen. The regiment as a whole is receiving funds partly from its insurers and partly from the Army Central (Non Public) Fund. In fact, at the end of the day, I do not think they will be out of pocket.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord prepared to go to the Secretary of State to tell him the feeling that there is in this House about this quite small matter, and the feeling, also, that the noble Lord is the only one who thinks that Her Majesty's Government have been generous?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am certain that my right honourable friend's sense of generosity and sense of 1324 duty are greater than mine and he will be dealing with this matter in 10 minutes' time.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, will the noble Lord take into account the good morale effect of the fact that the Green Howards band was able to carry on with all its engagements, and also the adverse morale effect on the IRA of the fact that they were not able to knock the Green Howards band out of action, which, in itself, is a very good reason why compensation should be given?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, all of us who have marched behind military bands know their importance.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether Kneller Hall is not now regarded by the Ministry of Defence, as it was regarded by the War Office in days gone by, as an integral part of the Service; and can he recall any circumstances in the past when bandsmen had to insure their instruments? Certainly, in my time that never happened, but of course things are changing.
§ Lord TRANMIREMy Lords, in view of the penultimate reply of the noble Lord will he reconsider the question, since the regiment is more than £10,000 out of pocket?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this matter is not yet closed. I shall make certain that the noble Lord is informed of the outcome of today's discussions.
§ Lord AIREDALEMy Lords, as a matter of urgency, will the Minister within the next 10 minutes—if that is when the Secretary of State is to consider the matter —convey the feelings of the House to him?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMOnly by telepathy, my Lords. I cannot do it in any other way.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, having served in the 50th Tyne and Tees Division with the noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, in which Division there were no less than three battalions of the Green Howards, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that there are a large number of people with connections with the whole 8th Army, who served with the Green Howards in the Middle 1325 East, who will consider it mean and spiteful if there is not full recompense?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, obviously the House feels very deeply about this Question. I am in the hands of the House, but we have gone on for rather a long time and we have a lot of business. We have, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Denham, agrees, an extremely important debate in front of us. Perhaps we might pass to the next Question?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, can the noble Baroness remind the noble Lord, Lord Winter bottom, that there is a telephone?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I already have.