Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how they intend to dispose of the endowments of hospitals which are closed.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, so far as is practicable the endowments will continue to be held by the health authorities in whom they are vested and will be applied for objectives as closely related as possible to the purposes for which they were used immediately before the closure.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether it means, regarding hospitals which may be scheduled for closure, that those who are left of the people who gave the money originally will, through the health authorities, be able to achieve the objectives they would like, which might in fact have stopped the hospitals from being closed down? It is the power which I should like to know about.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not think the noble Baroness can read that into anything I have said, and I think the answer to her various questions is, "No". If a health authority holds endowments received since 1948 specifically for the purpose of a particular hospital, and if, because of the closure of that hospital or for any other reasons, the purpose of the trust cannot be carried out, the general principles of trust law 934 would apply. By that I mean that in such a case the authority would presumably apply to the court or to the Charity Commission to approve or devise a scheme which would enable the funds to be used for purposes related as closely as practicable to those for which the money was originally given.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, while again thanking the noble Lord for that helpful reply, as I am sure it was meant to be, may I ask him whether he is aware that private money was extracted—legally, I am sure—against the will of a great many people? Will he therefore agree that it is of the utmost importance that the money which was endowed is used in accordance with the wishes of the people who gave the money?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not think I can usefully add anything to what I have already said. I have made it perfectly clear that if a particular hospital is closed and there are endowments, every effort will be made to use that money for much the same purpose. But, obviously, it would have to involve another hospital rendering a similar service.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that the consent of the Secretary of State is required before any hospital is closed? Furthermore, in view of the fact that the policy of the Department of Health is now to encourage much smaller hospitals than the district generals which have been fashionable in the past, is it not probable that very many fewer hospitals will be closed in the future than might otherwise have been closed if the district general hospital policy had been continued?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, in reply to the first part of the noble Lord's question, the answer is, "Yes". My right honourable friend the Secretary of State must give approval to the closure of a hospital although, as the noble Lord and other noble Lords will know, the closure can be recommended by a community health council through the Area Health Authority. With regard to the second part of the noble Lord's question, I cannot say at this stage what the future will be in relation to which hospitals will be closed and which will remain.
§ Lord HYLTONMy Lords, the whole House will be grateful for what the noble Lord has said concerning endowments and the cy près principle. Bearing in mind the lack of progress since the White Paper Better Services for the Mentally Handicapped, may I ask the Government whether they will consider earmarking, not only the proceeds of endowments but also the proceeds of land and buildings disposed of by subnormality hospitals, for such things as hostels, training centres and up-to-date facilities for the mentally handicapped?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord and your Lordships that the use of buildings is continuously under review. I had occasion only this last week to give my attention to one or two such matters. I will, however, bring this point to the notice of my right honourable friend, because I think she herself would recognise the importance of the best possible use of buildings.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, when my noble friend mentions that decisions regarding endowments of closed hospitals will be taken by the authority, does he not mean that the decision will be taken by the Area Health Authority of the district involved?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I think my noble friend is right. I was not aware that I had said anything to the contrary.
§ Lord DRUMALBYNMy Lords, is the noble Lord able to say that his principal Answer applies to Scotland?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I would always hesitate to say that anythink might or might not apply to Scotland. I would have to take advice on that matter.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that it would be as well for noble Lords to reflect for one moment on the position of hospitals in this country prior to the introduction of the National Health Service? Is he further aware—and I am following up the Question that was asked by the noble Baroness in the first place—in regard to the amount of private money that went into the building of certain hospitals in the North-East, for example, that if it had not been for the contributions that came 936 from employees in private industry, such as the mining industry in Durham and in Northumberland, the RVI at Newcastle and the Durham County Hospital would not be in existence today, because the foundations would never have been laid if it had not been for the contributions that were made at that time?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I think we are all mindful of the fact that before 1948 a tremendous amount was done in this country by a number of large-hearted people and large-hearted concerns. When the National Health Service came into being on the 5th July 1948 there was in existence an Act of Parliament of 1946 which, your Lordships will be aware covered the question of endowments. The care of endowments was again changed by the NHS Reorganisation Act 1973; and I think the whole question of the treatment of endowments, both before vesting day and afterwards, has been adequately covered.
§ Viscount DAVENTRYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord a question on these endowments? I well know what happened to them in the past, but are these endowments in future going to be treated in exactly the same way as they were in the past?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I think the answer to that question is: Yes, subject to the overriding consideration which will be given to the fact that if it is in relation to a hospital which is being closed for any reason then either the court or the Charity Commission will have to be satisfied that the money will be used for similar purposes.