HL Deb 06 August 1975 vol 363 cc1651-3
The EARL of ARRAN

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will seek the advice of the Law Officers of the Crown as to whether a prosecution should be initiated for sedition or treason against those Trade Union General Secretaries who are self-avowedly Marxists.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, if the noble Earl has any evidence of sedition or treason, he should inform my right honourable and learned friend the Attorney General, who will no doubt refer it to the Director of Public Prosecutions if he thinks that course necessary.

The EARL of ARRAN

My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack seriously believe that Mr. Mick McGahey, the Communist President of the Scottish National Union of Mineworkers, and Mr. Arthur Scargill, the Marxist leader of the Yorkshire miners, are loyal to the Sovereign, and that their loyalties do not lie elsewhere?

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, it is not for me, sitting on the Woolsack as head of the Judiciary, to comment on any particular case. If any of these matters are seriously contended to come within the domain of the criminal law, I have indicated the course that should be followed.

Baroness GAITSKELL

My Lords, may I ask my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor whether it would be true to say that one of the greatest strengths of our democracy—and I have had to stand up and spell this out—is that we allow people the human right, which is, after all, in the Charter, of joining a political Party of their choice, unless it is a Party which incites people to violence?

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, the maintenance of such liberties is of course an essential part of our freedoms; but the exercise of all liberties must be contained within the parameters of the law, if I may coin a phrase.

Lord SLATER

My Lords, is my noble and learned friend aware that I still classify myself as a coal miner? Is he further aware that two of the greatest Secretaries of the National Union of Mineworkers have been two individuals who were supposed to be Communists—Mr. Arthur Horner and Mr. Will Paynter? They did yeoman service and gave good leadership to the people they represented, and they acknowledged their allegiance so far as the Monarchy of this country was concerned.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, if I may say so, I knew both gentlemen well and I think the first of them had the distinction of being born and bred near the town of Llanelly.

Lord TAYLOR of MANSFIELD

My Lords, would the noble and learned Lord agree that if the noble Earl, Lord Arran were to confine himself to the welfare of badgers and to the proposals of the Ministry of Agriculture, he would be better employed?

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, may I ask my noble and learned friend who sits on the Woolsack whether the noble Earl, Lord Arran, has evidence of sedition or treason in respect of any citizen of this country? May I further ask whether, if having such evidence, a citizen does not disclose it to the authorities, he renders himself liable to prosecution for aiding and abetting?

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, that is an interesting question which again should be directed at a source other than the Government, who have no responsibility for initiating prosecutions of any kind.

Lord KINNAIRD

My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Lord, since I know nothing about law, whether he would agree that the trade union leaders are elected to look after the trade unions and not to meddle in politics? May I also ask the noble and learned Lord whether, if they do meddle in politics we should not perhaps consider changing the law?—because we all know where they are heading.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, the day when we prevent a British subject from meddling with politics will be a dark day for this country.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, may I ask whether we have not meddled with legal subjects long enough this afternoon?

The Earl of ARRAN

My Lords, one last question: may I ask Her Majesty's Government whether, once again, they are funking this issue?