§ 11.0 a.m.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the number of admissions to prison and borstal respectively during 1973 and 1974 respectively of prostitutes convicted of soliciting; what proportion of total admissions to prison and borstal these figures represent; and what was the average length of sentence served and the total cost for prisons and borstals respectively in each of those years.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I can give the figures for Great Britain and I will give those for England and Wales separately, followed by those for Scotland. As regards England and Wales, 137 and 100 persons respectively were received into prison in 1973 and 1974 respectively, representing 8.4 per cent. and 6.2 percent. of total female admissions in those years: the average length of sentence served was 63 and 62 days respectively. Some two and eight persons respectively were received into borstal institutions, representing 0.8 per cent. and 2.8 per cent. of total admissions of females to borstals in those years. The average periods served were 230 days and 241 days respectively. The annual costs of maintaining female inmates in custody in 1972–73 and 1973–74 were £2,425 and £2,773 respectively.
As regards Scotland, in those two years 48 and 28 persons respectively were received into prison and five and two persons respectively were received into young offenders' institutions. These represented 6.5 per cent. of total admissions of females to penal establishments 1298 in 1973 and 3.6 per cent. in 1974. The average length of sentence served was 30 days in both years. The annual costs of maintaining female inmates in prisons in 1972–73 and 1973–74 were £1,256 and £1,870 respectively and in young offenders' institutions £1,237 and £1,317 respectively.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, I thank the Minister for those extremely interesting figures. May I ask whether they do not indicate that custodial sentences for this type of offence are not only wholly ineffective but also horribly expensive? Further, does the noble Lord not agree that the criminal law in this field should not concern itself with morality, and that it is time for a fresh look at the Street Offences Act with that in mind?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am in some agreement with what the noble Lord has said. There is a question of whether it serves any useful purpose. So far as borstal institutions are concerned, the long sentences are designed—successfully or otherwise—to perform some kind of training. But the law relating to soliciting in streets and public places for the purposes of prostitution has been reviewed by a Working Party consisting of representatives of the Home Office, the Department of Health and Social Security, the Department of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the police. This Working Party, which also studied the law relating to vagrancy, published a working paper on which it has invited comments. The comments which have been received are now being examined, and it is hoped that at some time in the autumn the conclusions in this rather controversial field will be published. I hope that the noble Lord and other noble Lords will feel that we can wait until then.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords while one will await the report to which the noble Lord has referred, is there not a profound distinction between treatment in borstal and treatment in prison, the one being for the benefit of the person concerned—however wisely or unwisely—and the other being a form of punishment? Secondly, is the noble Lord not aware that the Street Offences Act had nothing whatever to do with sexual morality but had everything to do with violence and public nuisance?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I accept the view of the noble and learned Lord in the last respect. In Scotland, they make a distinction. There are borstal institutions there, but as regards this matter they decided to send the people concerned to the young offenders' institutions, where the sentences served are much shorter. The whole treatment of people in this field has to be looked at, and I know that people doing professional social work are very concerned at what is happening.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, now that we are in the Common Market, could we not take a more sophisticated look at this problem and do as the French do?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am sure that that sounds very exciting, but perhaps I could be excused from giving any reply.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, is it not a fact that the French ladies are sitting in the churches?
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the figures he gave show an increase in the trend; and also, as he separated the figures for Scotland, whether he has separate figures for Wales also?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, so far as the second part of my noble friend's supplementary question is concerned, statistics normally relate to England and Wales and are not given separately, but they are quite separate for Scotland.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, has my noble friend any figures to indicate—
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, on a point of order—
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKNo point of order, but my question was not answered. Is the trend increasing?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right; I did omit to reply to him. The answer is that I do not know, but I shall find out.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, has my noble friend any figures which 1300 indicate the loss of earnings suffered by these ladies during their incarceration, and the consequent loss of income tax to the national Exchequer? Incidentally, how are they assessed for income tax?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, with great respect, that point is very wide of the original Question. But my understanding of the situation is that these ladies do not pay income tax. I have always been led to believe that all they have to do is to write their profession across the income tax form and send it back.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, cannot they be taxed on the VAT system?
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, I suggest that we now move to the second Question.
§ Lord MAELORMy Lords, I have just one question. Can my noble friend tell me whether there are any prisons in Wales and, if so, where they are?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I cannot answer that, and I do not think I will undertake to try to find out either.