Lords Sitting of 1 August 1975

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark.

PROSTITUTES: CONVICTIONS AND SENTENCES
11.0 a.m.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the number of admissions to prison and borstal respectively during 1973 and 1974 respectively of prostitutes convicted of soliciting; what proportion of total admissions to prison and borstal these figures represent; and what was the average length of sentence served and the total cost for prisons and borstals respectively in each of those years.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I can give the figures for Great Britain and I will give those for England and Wales separately, followed by those for Scotland. As regards England and Wales, 137 and 100 persons respectively were received into prison in 1973 and 1974 respectively, representing 8·4 per cent. and 6·2 percent. of total female admissions in those years: the average length of sentence served was 63 and 62 days respectively. Some two and eight persons respectively were received into borstal institutions, representing 0·8 per cent. and 2·8 per cent. of total admissions of females to borstals in those years. The average periods served were 230 days and 241 days respectively. The annual costs of maintaining female inmates in custody in 1972–73 and 1973–74 were £2,425 and £2,773 respectively.
As regards Scotland, in those two years 48 and 28 persons respectively were received into prison and five and two persons respectively were received into young offenders' institutions. These represented 6·5 per cent. of total admissions of females to penal establishments
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in 1973 and 3·6 per cent. in 1974. The average length of sentence served was 30 days in both years. The annual costs of maintaining female inmates in prisons in 1972–73 and 1973–74 were £1,256 and £1,870 respectively and in young offenders' institutions £1,237 and £1,317 respectively.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, I thank the Minister for those extremely interesting figures. May I ask whether they do not indicate that custodial sentences for this type of offence are not only wholly ineffective but also horribly expensive? Further, does the noble Lord not agree that the criminal law in this field should not concern itself with morality, and that it is time for a fresh look at the Street Offences Act with that in mind?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I am in some agreement with what the noble Lord has said. There is a question of whether it serves any useful purpose. So far as borstal institutions are concerned, the long sentences are designed—successfully or otherwise—to perform some kind of training. But the law relating to soliciting in streets and public places for the purposes of prostitution has been reviewed by a Working Party consisting of representatives of the Home Office, the Department of Health and Social Security, the Department of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the police. This Working Party, which also studied the law relating to vagrancy, published a working paper on which it has invited comments. The comments which have been received are now being examined, and it is hoped that at some time in the autumn the conclusions in this rather controversial field will be published. I hope that the noble Lord and other noble Lords will feel that we can wait until then.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords while one will await the report to which the noble Lord has referred, is there not a profound distinction between treatment in borstal and treatment in prison, the one being for the benefit of the person concerned—however wisely or unwisely—and the other being a form of punishment? Secondly, is the noble Lord not aware that the Street Offences Act had nothing whatever to do with sexual morality but had everything to do with violence and public nuisance?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I accept the view of the noble and learned Lord in the last respect. In Scotland, they make a distinction. There are borstal institutions there, but as regards this matter they decided to send the people concerned to the young offenders' institutions, where the sentences served are much shorter. The whole treatment of people in this field has to be looked at, and I know that people doing professional social work are very concerned at what is happening.
Baroness GAITSKELL: My Lords, now that we are in the Common Market, could we not take a more sophisticated look at this problem and do as the French do?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I am sure that that sounds very exciting, but perhaps I could be excused from giving any reply.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, is it not a fact that the French ladies are sitting in the churches?
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the figures he gave show an increase in the trend; and also, as he separated the figures for Scotland, whether he has separate figures for Wales also?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, so far as the second part of my noble friend's supplementary question is concerned, statistics normally relate to England and Wales and are not given separately, but they are quite separate for Scotland.
Lord LEATHERLAND: My Lords, has my noble friend any figures to indicate—
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, on a point of order—
Several Noble Lords: Order, order!
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: No point of order, but my question was not answered. Is the trend increasing?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right; I did omit to reply to him. The answer is that I do not know, but I shall find out.
Lord LEATHERLAND: My Lords, has my noble friend any figures which
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indicate the loss of earnings suffered by these ladies during their incarceration, and the consequent loss of income tax to the national Exchequer? Incidentally, how are they assessed for income tax?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, with great respect, that point is very wide of the original Question. But my understanding of the situation is that these ladies do not pay income tax. I have always been led to believe that all they have to do is to write their profession across the income tax form and send it back.
Lord LEATHERLAND: My Lords, cannot they be taxed on the VAT system?
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd): My Lords, I suggest that we now move to the second Question.
Lord MAELOR: My Lords, I have just one question. Can my noble friend tell me whether there are any prisons in Wales and, if so, where they are?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I cannot answer that, and I do not think I will undertake to try to find out either.

SEATO: PHASING-OUT PROPOSAL
11.14 a.m.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their reaction to the joint declaration of the Thailand and Philippine Governments in favour of the phasing out of the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation and the substitution of a common market for members of the Association of South-East Asian Nations.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have supported the South-East Asian Treaty Organisation as long as the regional members saw value in it. If they now wish to phase out the Organisation, we would not object. We fully support the objectives of the Association of South-East Asian Nations, as they are.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I very much welcome that reply. Would the Minister agree that, while SEATO has always been a little ineffective, in view of the present situation in South-East Asia it is now obsolete for its purposes?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, not everybody, especially those in that region, would agree that SEATO has not made a substantial contribution to peace and stability in that area. However, the question of its future is for its regional members to decide. We would go along with what they saw to be in their interest; they are the best judges of that. No doubt that question will be discussed in the forthcoming annual council meeting of SEATO which should take place in, I think, September.
Earl COWLEY: My Lords, can the noble Lord say how the future of SEATO is affected by the present Government's defence cuts?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I do not think that there is any relation at all. I should like to stress that we regard the future of SEATO as being very much the concern of the regional members of that organisation.

EEC COUNCIL OF MINISTERS
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, a Statement is being made in another place today about business to be taken in the EEC Council of Ministers during September. With the leave of the House, I will, as usual, arrange for the Statement to be made available in the Official Report.
The Statement is as follows:
"With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a Statement about business to be taken in the Council of Ministers of the European Community. The Council will not meet during August. The monthly forecast for September was deposited yesterday. It is likely that Foreign Affairs, Finance, Agriculture and Environment Ministers will meet during October, but the dates have not yet been confirmed.
At present six meetings of the Council of Ministers are proposed for September. Foreign Ministers will meet on 15th and 16th; Finance and Budget Ministers on 22nd; Agriculture
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Ministers on 9th and 29th and 30th September and Energy Ministers on a date yet to be set.
At the Foreign Affairs Council Ministers will have before them the 1976 scheme of generalised preferences. It is likely that they will have a preliminary discussion of the result of the 7th Special Session of the UN General Assembly which is to take place from 1st to 12th September. Ministers will also have before them progress reports on relations with Portugal and Iceland. There are likely to be discussions on the negotiations with Spain and with the Maghreb; on mandates for negotiations with Malta and the Mashraq and on matters arising out of the EEC/Greece Association Council which was held in Athens on 28th July.
In addition to their usual review of the economic situation in the Community Finance Ministers will have before them proposals for Euratom loans; on joint Community borrowing and on the Community exchange rate system. Ministers at the Budget Council will consider the Communities' preliminary draft budget for 1976.
Agriculture Ministers on 9th September are expected to continue their discussions on the re-structuring of the wine regime and on 29th and 30th September on part of the basic sugar regulation dealing with imports from ACP countries.
Items that may be discussed at the Energy Council include guidelines of a policy for developing energy resources inside the Community and within a wider context of international co-operation, the financing of the energy policy and support for common projects in the hydrocarbons sector.
It is too early to say what the October Councils will consider, but I will deposit in the House at the end of September a written forecast of business likely to be discussed in the Councils in October."

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the

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meaning of the Parliament Act 1911, and read 1a.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution), Bill read 2a: Committee negatived; Bill read 3a, and passed.
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAV1ES of HASTOE: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do adjourn during pleasure until 11.35 a.m.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL ASSENT
11.35 a.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Elwyn-Jones): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts and Measures:

Appropriation Act 1975,

Finance (No. 2) Act 1975,

International Road Haulage Permits Act 1975,

Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975,

Conservation of Wild Creatures and Wild Plants Act 1975,

Mobile Homes Act 1975,

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Guard Dogs Act 1975,

Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975,

Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975,

Public Service Vehicles (Arrest of Offenders) Act 1975,

Limitation Act 1975,

Statutory Corporations (Financial Provisions) Act 1975,

Coal Industry Act 1975,

Remuneration, Charges and Grants Act 1975,

Scottish Transport Group (Port Ellen Harbour) Order Confirmation Act 1975,

Dundee Harbour Order Confirmation Act 1975,

Dundee Port Authority Order Confirmation Act 1975,

British Transport Docks Act 1975,

Plymouth City Council Act 1975,

Westminster Abbey Act 1975,

Dart Harbour and Navigation Authority Act 1975,

British Waterways Act 1975,

Church Commissioners (Miscellaneous Provisions) Measure 1975,

Ecclesiastical Offices (Age Limit) Measure 1975.

House adjourned at twenty-two minutes before twelve o'clock.