Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when they will make a Statement about the British Steel Corporation's current 10 year plan for the steel industry in Scotland of the kind made earlier this year for England and Wales.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Lord Beswick)My Lords, it is too soon to indicate the timing of a Government statement on the review of the British Steel Corporation's proposed closures in Scotland. The tripartite meetings were held on 17th and 18th April, and it is essential to weigh carefully the many arguments which were put forward there, and in writing, and at my meetings in Scotland. An announcement will be made as soon as possible.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, as the noble Lord is himself carrying out this review, can he tell the House whether the Government are aware that indefinite delay in carrying out the British Steel Corporation's modernisation programme will damage its prospects of being competitive in the future? Is he, for example, considering retention of obsolete open-hearth furnaces?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord really should not repeat these silly statements about delay in modernisation. The expansion of steel-making in Scotland is to be at Ravenscraig. That is 1017 agreed and it is going ahead. There is absolutely no reason at all why it should not go ahead as fast as possible. The closure review has nothing at all to do with that.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, did my noble friend notice the statement made, I think yesterday, by the Chairman of the British Steel Corporation which seemed to forecast rather heavier figures of redundancy than we have previously heard? Can he say whether those figures had been discussed with the appropriate trade unions within the steel industry before the Chairman made that public statement?
§ Lord BESWICKs: My Lords, I am aware that as a result of the recession this year there is a short-term problem superimposed upon the long-term problem that I have been considering. The possibility of redundancies in relation to that, or of short-time working, is a matter for the relevant trade unions in the first place. My understanding is that there were to be discussions with the relevant trade unions, and I am bound to say I should have thought that to be a much more useful method of discussion than rather colourful statements at dinner parties with industrial journalists.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, was the Minister saying, in his courteous reply to me just now, that the Government sec no connection between the modernisation plans in Scotland and the question of closures of obsolete plant? Are the Government still aiming at the 25 per cent. increase in Scottish steel production which was announced two years ago? As modernisation means more production, but unfortunately less jobs, is not the most important matter for the Government the creation of alternative employment in the areas concerned?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, if my reply was less courteous than is my wont, it is because the persistence of this campaign about delay has been less helpful than usual. The fact is there are two elements in the 10-year strategy. One is the expansion of steel, and I have said—and I say again—that there is no delay at all so far as the expansion of steel making at Ravenscraig is concerned. So far as the closures are concerned, that 1018 is a different matter. That, and the possibility of some revision of the finished plants in Scotland, is what I am considering, and that is something which is now going on. But there is no delay of the expansion programme. The noble Lord asked me whether it is still the proposal to have the 25 per cent. increase —I think it is a 22 per cent. increase-in steel making in Scotland. There is no reduction at all in that proposed increase.
§ Lord LLOYD of KILGERRANMy Lords, following the earlier reply by the noble Lord about full discussion with the trade unions, is he now in a position to give an assurance that there was full discussion, before the announcement made by the chairman of the British Steel Corporation on redundancies, with the trade unions and the workers at the Shotton works? The noble Lord may remember that two or three years ago, when there were some difficulties regarding the Shotton works, there had not been adequate discussions between the senior staff and employees at the works, or even with the trade union organisation.
§ Lord BESWICKYes, my Lords. I recognise the interest here. May I say again that we are now dealing with two problems. One is the long-term problem arising from the 10-year strategy programme of the British Steel Corporation, and the other is the shorterterm problem arising out of the current recession. So far as the Shotton case is concerned, there have been discussions. I have been there and the Shotton men have been to see me; and we have had a tripartite discussion on that particular case. As a result of that discussion, we are considering certain figures and I am waiting for certain other figures from the Corporation. However, this other statement on the short-term situation is one that was made by the Chairman in the circumstances I have described, and whether or not that was discussed with the men at Shotton I could not say.
§ Lord LLOYD of KILGERRANMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. May I say that the visit of the noble Lord to the Shotton works was very much appreciated in the district?
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that while it is extremely desirable that the central 1019 policy of the British Steel Corporation should be towards massive modernisation, unless there is also a degree of flexibility maintained in the form of minor, perhaps less efficient works, it will be impossible to keep up the overall efficiency? Also, would my noble friend accept the congratulations of many of us on the Report which he presented?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend. If he is saying that the whole business is somewhat complex, then I agree with him.
§ Lord MAELORMy Lords, is the Minister aware that according to this morning's Press, the Chairman of the Corporation has stated, with reference to Shotton, that he intends to defy the Government? If he has said this, should he not be removed?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I have said before, and I say again, that my relationship with the Chairman of the British Steel Corporation has always been the most friendly and the most co-operative. I am sorry that there may have been extracts in the Press. If there is such a report as my noble friend says, I think that possibly it was taken out of context, and may, indeed, not reflect the true position. But I shall look to see what he is referring to.