§ 2.47 p.m.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what defence obligations, if any, the United Kingdom has towards Thailand and/or Malaysia.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have a consultative commitment in the Five-Power Defence Arrangement to which Malaysia is a party. We will continue our membership of SEATO, of which Thailand is a member. The Manila Treaty of 1954, establishing SEATO, embodies a commitment to consult over the defence of the Treaty area.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. May I first ask whether he subscribes to the "Domino" theory? Secondly, can he say whether, as a result of that, Her Majesty's Government are to contemplate a Pontius Pilate act; and, if not, how can that be reconciled with the Government's reduction of the Services to the strength of a fourth-rate Power?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am not disposed to discuss theories— whether "Domino" or otherwise. With regard to the second part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, that is rather tendentious. As for the third part, whatever predisposition we make of our defence resources, I am quite sure that it need not lead to a diminution of adequate security in this area which, after all, rests on the will and determination of the indigenous people.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, in view of the fact that the Labour Party has twice within 10 years withdrawn British forces from Malaysia and Singapore, does the noble Lord think that his answer will be convincing to us, and, least of all, to the Malaysians and Singaporeans?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I could not with confidence hope to convince the noble Lord. But I am quite sure that what I have said— that the crux of defence and security in this area rests on the political will and determination of the indigenous population— is a lesson that must be learned.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the illogicality of the demands for the extension of our so-called military police forces all over the world are in absolute contrast to yesterday's debate, when we were asked to forgo our sovereignty and join in with a European system of defence? I have never heard such madness!
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend saying that the consultative role that is operated by the United Kingdom in the Pacific areas is of any consequence? Is he not aware that there is serious trouble in Malaysia at the present time, and that there is a danger of the Government being overrun by guerillas? In those circumstances, is it not likely that there will be repercussions in the Pacific generally, affecting the Philippines and so on? Are we to understand that we have abandoned all our obligations to Malaysia? What are likely to be the consequences?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I would not accept my noble friend's assessment of the prospects of the Malaysian Government. As to our role in South-East Asia, clearly recent events must give reason for thought to every-body. But we remain, and intend to remain, members of SEATO and of the Five-Power defence arrangement. The extent to which we can contribute to the security and peace of South-East Asia is naturally limited to our resources. However, for 20 years these arrangements, SEATO and the FPDA, have proved of great help in maintaining peace and security in that area. We intend to maintain our membership of both organisations.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, am I to understand from my noble friend's original Answer that is it not the purpose or intention of Her Majesty's Government to abdicate from our commitment so far as Malaysia is concerned?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, would the noble Lord take this opportunity, or ask his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to take an early opportunity, of condemning the breaking of the Paris Peace Treaty and the massive invasion by North Vietnam of South Vietnam, using regular forces very heavily armed and entirely against all the agreements signed in Paris?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we have repeatedly condemned the infringements of the Paris Agreement from whatever quarters those infringements have emerged.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON:My Lords, when the noble Lord says that the security of this area depends on the will of the indigenous population, does he intend the corollary—that we are no longer in a position to do anything at all to help them?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSNot in the least, my Lords. As I have said, we intend to maintain our membership of these two very useful organisations. I feel bound to emphasise that a main part of the peace and security of any area, as well as of this one, must clearly rest on the will and determination of the indigenous population.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord satisfied, in view of the Defence Review, the further £100 million saving on defence expenditure and the scrapping of all our strategic aircraft, that the British Forces could honour their commitments?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSCertainly, my Lords, we could engage in the consultative commitment to which we are obliged by these Treaties.
§ Lord SUDELEYMy Lords, in terms of the wishes of the indigenous inhabitants, may I ask the Minister whether he would agree that, while the countries of South-East Asia may be opposed to China, whether they are opposed to Communism may be another matter—it is a question of high politics only—so that the word "Communism" may be looked upon as a mere label?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, in so far as I followed the arguments behind the noble Lord's question, I would say this. It is for the countries of any given area to define their attitudes to their neighbours. We, for our part, will do all in our power to assist countries which ask us to help them. It is for us to define how far and how fast we can help them.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask I my noble friend whether he is not taking a rather complacent view of the situation in Malaysia? He announced in reply to one supplementary question that as a result of SEATO peace has prevailed in that area for the last 20 years. But can he furnish any accurate information about what is actually happening in Malaysia at the present time, and what are likely to be the consequences? Despite our association with the Five-Power pact, is there any practical advantage from the standpoint of the defence of Malaysia?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we see practical and continuing advantage in our adherence to membership of both Treaty organisations, so long as the countries concerned want us to remain. As to my appraisal of the prospects of Malaysia, what I said was that I could not go along with my noble friend's appraisal. Clearly, Malaysia and every other country in this area have grave problems, perhaps graver in the immediate future than in the past. That is as far as I can go this afternoon.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, would the noble Lord assure the Prime Minister of Singapore when he comes here that the welfare of Malaysia and Singapore is a matter of real concern to this country? Will he make that abundantly clear to the Prime Minister?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we have recently made that clear to the Prime Minister of Singapore and to the Prime Minister of Malaysia. We shall do so again. I can assure the noble Earl that both Premiers fully understand and agree with the United Kingdom's attitude.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDEMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree to convey the worry that has been expressed in this House today? Are the present Government as worried as we 895 are? If not, will they get their worries dealt with from our point of view?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, concern for the immediate future in this area is obviously not the prerogative of any one Party or faction in this country. Of course Her Majesty's Government are giving the most anxious consideration to the situation in South-East Asia.
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords, would my noble friend agree, having regard to the events in South-East Asia, that any question of the implication of military intervention will need very careful consideration?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have emphasised that these two Treaties which were initiated by our predecessors are consultative in their commitment.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, is it part of our Treaty obligations to sustain the will and confidence of the indigenous inhabitants? Can my noble friend say how we propose to do that if we reduce our commitments in that area?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is certainly our intention and desire to assist these countries, and other countries similarly placed, to forge their own future in peace and security. Insofar as this country can help to do it, we shall do it.
Lord CHELWOODMy Lords, have the Malaysian Government told Her Majesty's Government whether they would like a token force to continue to be maintained in that country?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I cannot address myself to that specific question. We are in constant consultation with our partners in both SEATO and FPDA. These questions are regularly discussed among us.
§ Lord BOURNEMy Lords, would the Minister be good enough to answer two questions—
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd)My Lords, may I intervene at this point? I know that this is a matter of concern to many noble Lords. May I suggest that the noble Lord be allowed to put his question to the House, and that the House should agree that that be an end to it? This is a question in which all noble Lords are interested. It is difficult to know how to intervene and say that enough is enough.
§ Lord BOURNEMy Lords, I very much thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for that. I should like to ask the noble Lord two questions. First, is now the time to withdraw a frigate, a battalion and a few Nimrod aircraft from the Five-Power Defence Agreement?—because in other places we have not done so. We have maintained the presence of British troops in Berlin, for example. I very much doubt whether a promise to consult would have been enough there. Secondly, why did Australia and New Zealand get different answers from the SEATO consultations from those obtained by this country?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, on the first question, I take full note of what the noble Lord has said. On the second question, I should like to look into this matter, because I do not think I have grasped the point made by the noble Lord. Perhaps he will have a word with me after Question Time.