§ 2.38 p.m.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government to state the number of community centres in the United Kingdom provided and supervised by local authorities and what provision is made for aged pensioners who are ablebodied who may wish to engage in social activities of value to the community in which they reside.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I hope that my noble friend will not think that I am being unhelpful when I say that the information with regard to community centres is not available because the number of actual community centres is not known. There are some 3,000 community associations, but this does not mean that there are that number of community centres. The problem in respect of the lack of information is the fact that loan sanction is not required by local authorities when community centres are built because, more often than not, they form part of a large development, and where there is no request for special loan sanction it is not separately recorded.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I offer my thanks to my noble friend for his somewhat inadequate reply, but so far as I can gather he has done the best he can. Is he aware that I gather myself, from a number of letters that I have received, that there are quite a large number of community centres, but the trouble is that they appear to neglect the opportunity of providing not only recreation but means of further education and the opportunity of engaging in either gainful or non-gainful occupation? Is he further aware that vast numbers of able-bodied pensioners are being frustrated by boredom through having nothing to do, and the community is losing a great deal through lack of use of the talent existing in the country? Why do not 595 Her Majesty's Government seek to make use of it?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I have some personal knowledge of this particular problem. I can tell my noble friend that on 31st March 1974 there were 210 local authority day centres in England for persons of 65 years and over, and there is abundant evidence that a good many of the members of the clubs are doing a tremendous amount of work. They not only work on neighbourhood activities in respect of retired people but also serve the community in a number of ways. I myself know of one old people's club which has formed a very successful concert party, which travels miles in giving concerts in hospitals and before other organisations. We are aware that it is important to provide as much opportunity as possible for elderly people to serve the community. I think that it would be wrong to assume that this is not being done, because so many elderly people are, carrying out activities not only for themselves but for other people in the community.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I can endorse his statement that something is being done? This I gather from letters I have received from those who are making these community centres available. Would the Government give a boost to this concept of utilising the qualities and talent in the operation of the crafts—not graft, of course—of these able-bodied elderly people? For example, could they not send out a circular to local authorities asking what is being done in the community centres under their supervision? If that were done, for the moment I should be quite satisfied.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend. Perhaps he will allow me to draw the attention of my right honourable friend to his remarks.
Viscount ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, could the noble Lord tell me whether this is a purpose to which local schools might usefully be put if approached on the matter? Would they be able to offer space after hours when not put to their usual purposes? Schools are put to many good purposes. Would it be possible for 596 some of these organisations to approach the school authorities to provide space?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not think there is difficulty in finding accommodation. A substantial percentage of the 3,000 community associations in fact meet in schools.
§ Lord STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, could the noble Lord give similar information with regard to Scotland? Would he draw the attention of his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to this matter also?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLIndeed I shall, my Lords.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDEMy Lords, would it not be helpful to modern social development if, when a community centre is established, information were sent to the appropriate Department? Does the noble Lord agree with me that when the country knows what areas are providing community centres, it might stimulate those authorities who perhaps are not quite so enthusiastic, to get going so that they will be on an equal level? The more we know about developments the better it will be for our country, and for those people whom we want to serve.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, may I take note of the remarks of the noble Baroness?