§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, when pay beds are phased out of National Health hospitals, special medical equipment possessed only by such hospitals will continue to be available, under suitable medical operation and supervision, to patients who have elected to receive medical care outside the National Health Service.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, after phasing out of pay beds, all those normally entitled to use the National Health Service will be able to use it as they do now, whether up to that point they had been private patients or not. But if the noble Lord is asking whether at that time the National Health Service will support private consultants and private hospitals by making available to them special equipment originally provided for use in the NHS, this will depend upon the circumstances. The policy will be to continue so far as possible a separation of private and National Health Service facilities. There will, however, be no change in the arrangements for the supply of blood from the Blood Transfusion Service.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, perhaps I heard wrongly, but that reply seemed to me a little contradictory. The noble Lord gave an assurance that 478 the special apparatus would be available, and then he seemed to say that the separation of the services would continue. Can I have an assurance that this highly specialised, very expensive equipment, which no private hospital can possibly contemplate having, will be available for the general body of tax-payers all of whom have contributed to the National Health Service?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not think that when the noble Lord reads my reply in Hansard tomorrow he will feel that I have said anything that is contradictory. What I said was that the whole question of the use of special equipment will have to be considered. I cannot hold out any hope that such equipment, which is designed for use in National Health Service hospitals, will be available to consultants in the private sector. All I can say is that this matter will be considered and there will be discussions.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, will my noble friend say whether it is possible for special equipment held in private hospitals, which is not available at the moment to National Health Service hospitals, to be made available to National Health Service patients?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I think we have to consider the matter under discussion; that is, what will happen when pay beds are phased out and there is a separation between the National Health Service and the private sector. The question of equipment is a matter for discussion, which has not yet taken place.
§ Lord ABERDAREMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that much special equipment which is in National Health Service hospitals has been provided by private benefactors?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLPresumably, my Lords, for the National Health Service.
Lord CHELWOODMy Lords, since it is apparently the firm intention of Her Majesty's Government to phase out pay beds altogether, presumably they have counted the cost. Will the noble Lord tell the House what will be the loss of revenue to the National Health Service?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I cannot, because I do not have the information. But, obviously, if the noble Lord wishes to put down a Question on this matter, I will get the Answer.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, may not the equipment have been meant for patients and not for the Service, and should not human suffering transcend political differences?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, what the noble and learned Lord says may well be right. If equipment has been given for a specific purpose, then one would assume that that purpose will be continued.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, in working out the loss of revenue that will result to the National Health Service, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, will the noble Lord also provide figures of capital expenditure on additional beds which will not now have to be incurred, because of the fact that private beds will be available to National Health Service patients?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I seem to remember that when this matter was raised some time ago—I am speaking entirely from memory—I told the House that the building of a 1,000-bed hospital at that time cost something like £20 million. I imagine it is considerably more now.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, will logic be allowed to enter into the eventual decision? The decision at the moment, apparently, is that the Blood Transfusion Service will be available because no other blood bank is there. If it is considered right that the blood bank shall be available, because it is the only thing available to keep people alive, ought not the special equipment at present available in the National Health Service hospitals to come under the same decision?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I have said to the House—I think this is the third time—that this is a matter which is under consideration. I cannot go further than that, and I am not likely to be drawn on this matter.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, if it is a matter which is under consideration, does the Minister feel that he would be able to give us a fuller reply if we put down a Question in, say, a month's time?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLI would think not, my Lords.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that lack of enthusiasm among consultants towards the National Health Service is far more important than a cessation of restrictive practices? Can he say what constructive steps the Government propose to take to maintain the highest possible standards of medical practice in the National Health Service?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, that is another question that goes wide of the original one. I do not think I ought to be drawn on this matter.
§ Lord ENERGLYNMy Lords, would the noble Lord reconsider his answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare?—because the question that he posed dealt not only with equipment that is of immediate use, but also that which advances the frontiers of medical knowledge.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I have nothing to add to what I have already said.