§ Lord SOPERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in the name of the Lord Bishop of London on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to ensure that as many as possible of the empty houses owned by the Government or local authorities are put to full use to house homeless people.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Birk)My Lords, my honourable friend the Minister for Housing and Construction has recently suggested various practical measures to secure that vacant or underused property owned by local authorities and the Government is more fully used for people in housing need. Interested bodies, notably the local authority associations, are shortly to be consulted on these and other possible measures. Some local authorities have already shown that many of these suggestions can be put into effect without any additional strain on resources.
§ Lord SOPERMy Lords, while appreciating that reply from my noble friend, and while also appreciating the urgency of a situation in which, for various reasons, there are probably 100,000 homeless people in the country, and at least 2,000 single homeless who were sleeping rough, or existing rough, on the streets of London last night, may I ask this question? Do the Government feel that it is necessary, or at least eminently desirable, to apply requisitioning powers to properties which have been vacant for 288 something like two months or six months, in order to meet the pressing need which exists at the moment? If the Government feel somewhat hesitant about that, may I say that such powers were in operation during the time of warfare and do they not consider that the situation now requires similar urgent measures?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, the Govment have considered the question of requisitioning, and have come to the conclusion that the compulsory purchase procedure which is in operation will do the job just as well. It could be used more fully than it is used at the moment, and would not involve great new administrative procedures such as those which would be involved in requisitioning. As for the comparison with wartime procedure, I think there is a difference here and the Government feel that the measures that were taken then would not be acceptable at the present time.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, would the Minister confirm, as the Question refers to empty council and Government-owned properties, that the majority of empty houses in London—which are believed to number nearly 100,000—are, in fact, owned by local authorities?
§ Baroness BIRKNo, my Lords, I would not agree that that is so. My information is to the contrary, but if the noble Baroness has any informaion that she would like me to have I shall be grateful if she will write to me.
§ Lord SOPERMy Lords, I should like to ask one further supplementary question. Is it not true that the application of compulsory purchase procedure is cumbrous, costly and liable to last something like 18 months, and is that not an unpardonable suffering to be inflicted upon people who need to be accommodated much more quickly? As an encouragement, might not the principle of penal rating be applied by local authorities in emendation of the 1974 Act, whereby those properties which are left without occupation for a period of time without good reason should be so penalised?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, local authorities have power to put rating on empty properties and it is left to their discretion to use it. So far as the compulsory purchase procedure is concerned, 289 this Question applies to local authority and Government buildings but, nevertheless, the requisitioning procedure would take just as long, if not longer. Finally, may I just say that the measures which are needed and which the Government are pressing local authorities to under-take are the quicker conversion of large, empty or under-occupied houses, encouraging tenants to take in lodgers, the use for short-term letting of property awaiting redevelopment and a rapid repair service. These are what we see as the immediate measures that are needed.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness how one applies a compulsory purchase order to houses owned by the Government or by local authorities?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, one cannot. I was being far too liberal in my answers.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, before the noble Baroness entirely endorses the draconian measures proposed by the bloodthirsty Christian opposite, will she take note that those of us who have read the Question still regard it as being limited to local authority or Government-owned houses which are empty?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I quite agree with the noble and learned Lord— and I was not endorsing the draconian measures. In fact, I was arguing against them.
§ Lord SOPERMy Lords, did I understand the noble and learned Lord to assert that I was bloodthirsty?
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, while welcoming the proposition made by the noble Baroness, may I ask this? As this Question derives from the Church, would she not agree with me that in conjunction with these suggestions it would be an excellent idea if empty church halls could be used for community purposes for these people?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I am afraid that that is rather a different question. We are discussing empty houses.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, does the noble Baroness consider, in view of the fact that encouragement is being given to landlords to take in lodgers, that there should be a repeal of recent legislation which can only have the effect of making it impossible for houseowners to have tenants?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I was referring to council house tenants taking in lodgers, because that is what the Question is concerned with.
§ The Lord Bishop of SOUTHWARKMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether there is a time limit during which these houses can remain vacant, in view of the fact that there are many houses in South London known to me which have been vacant for five, six or even seven years?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, it varies considerably from place to place, but the Government have been pressing local authorities to do all they can to cut down the time that houses are left vacant. In fact, the percentage in London is lower than in many other places. If the right reverend Prelate has any examples I shall be happy if he will write to me, when I will try to help him.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, I welcome the fact that the Minister has been able to indicate the steps that the Government are taking in conjunction with local authorities to try to improve the situation. But would she not agree that the Government have made it very difficult for local authorities in that they have just sent out a Circular asking them to economise on both repairs to council houses and management, both of which are relevant to this Question?
§ Baroness BIRKNo, my Lords. The allocations for local authorities were designed to help them meet existing commitments, with something left over for improvement work of the kind that I imagine the noble Baroness, Lady Young, envisages. I must point out, on this afternoon of all others, that the country is in a very difficult economic situation. We should all like to do more. I would further point out that this Government have done far more on housing, and have made it a much higher priority, than did members of the Conservative Government.
§ Lord RAGLANs: My Lords, is it not the case that a great many of the homeless are, in fact, people who have been evicted by local authorities for non-payment of rent, and that local authorities do not really know what to do about them?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, my noble friends are sometimes very helpful. Local authorities find temporary accommodation for the evicted. But the number of evictions in the public sector represent a very small percentage, and the working of the Rent Act has meant that evictions in the private sector have become almost non-existent.