§ 3.13 p.m.
§ The Earl of MANSFIELDMy Lords. I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have considered some method of automatic collection of tolls in relation to the new toll booths at the Forth Road Bridge.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (Lord Hughes)My Lords, the Forth Road Bridge Joint Board, which is responsible for the operation and management of the bridge, carried out tests with automatic toll collecting equipment some time ago, but concluded, in the light of the outcome, that manual collection was generally quicker and more satisfactory.
§ The Earl of MANSFIELDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that there are automatic toll gathering machines in other countries— notably the United States of America and France—which have been in operation for several years, apparently quite satsifactorily? Secondly, will he agree that the job of collecting money in those circumstances is tedious and soul destroying, and if possible it would be much better left to a machine? Thirdly, has the noble Lord any personal knowledge of the queues which build up—especially at the Southern end of the bridge—at peak times?
§ Lord HUGHESMy Lords, in response to the last question, Yes. I doubt whether anybody figures there more regularly than I do, but it is not a great problem. With regard to the first part of the question, I do not know about the American situation. What I do know is the result of the tests which were carried out over a fairly lengthy period. These were some of the results: it proved impossible to leave the "automatic" booths unmanned because the equipment continually gave trouble; the snow, rain and bad weather generally affected the operation of the equipment, especially when coins became wet; bridge users persisted in trying to feed notes and vouchers into the equipment instead of coins, and there was an unacceptable time lag in the operation of the equipment between acceptance of the coin and the clearance of the booth. For these reasons it would seem inadvisable to interfere with the Board in the operation of their functions.
§ Several Noble Lords: Hear, hear!
§ Lord BOOTHBYMy Lords, despite that comprehensive reply from my noble friend, does he not realise that manual collection involves delay in connection with changing money? Would not the 184 simple solution be to place a slot at each end of the bridge so that a coin could be put into the slot in exchange for a piece of paper which could be surrendered at the other end?
§ Lord HUGHESMy Lords, I have found from experience that the simplest method is to have the 15p ready.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, will the noble Lord consult the Oxfordshire City Council, who have an excellent automatic machine working at their car parks?
§ Lord HUGHESMy Lords, I think that is a different set of circumstances. In that case they are not necessarily queueing up in the way that happens on the Forth Bridge. The queueing is bad only at particular times; at peak hours when people are entering and leaving the city. It is not a problem that really worries most people. In fact, most people would prefer to have a system which would do away with the tolls, but that is a different story altogether.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, despite the unsatisfactory result of the tests described by the noble Lord, is he aware that perfectly satisfactory machinery is available for this purpose in other countries? Will he ask the Forth Bridge authorities to look again at this matter, particularly to see whether they can find some better equipment than that which they tried earlier?
§ Lord HUGHESMy Lords, no, I do not think I will, but I will perhaps send them a copy of today's Hansard.