§ 2.47 p.m.
§ Lord CHALFONTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can yet report any progress on their discussions regarding the use of National Health Service facilities and equipment in hospitals for the treatment of private patients.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, Area Health Authorities and boards of governors in some areas have been asked by the unions in recent weeks to reduce services to private patients. Discussions on such requests have been taking place locally from time to time. Authorities generally have continued to make authorised accommodation and services available to private patients subject to their overriding responsibility for National Health Service services.
§ Lord CHALFONTMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that in some hospitals employees of the National Union of Public Employees are not so much reducing facilities to private patients as insisting that they should be completely abandoned? Can he further give an assurance that the phasing out of private beds in National Health Service hospitals is being carried out according to Government policy and not being accelerated as a result of direct action by the National Union of Public Employees?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, in reply to the first question put to me by my noble friend, the answer is that we are aware of the situation. With regard to the second matter, I can tell your Lordships that it is under discussion at the present moment and the Government will decide on the length and term of the phasing out.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, in view of what my noble friend has said, am I to understand that he is quite satisfied with the new arrangements made for private patients by Moorfields Eye Hospital?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, with regard to Moorfields Eye Hospital I know only what I have read in today's Times and beyond that I am afraid I cannot go.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, did the noble Lord see a report in the Daily Telegraph a few days ago which said that 2,000 beds had been removed from the private sector of the Health Service within the last few months, and can he confirm or deny that?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I did not see the report and am not aware of it, but I can say that that is just not true at all. There are about 4,500 private beds in National Health Service hospitals. I can only assume that the 2,000 beds mentioned in that particular article refers to the number of private beds not in use at a particular time. Your Lordships will appreciate that the 4,500-odd private beds in the National Health Service are not always fully occupied. During the course of a 8 week or a month a substantial number of them are not occupied. I think the article must refer to that.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, is the noble Lord confirming that there has been no significant reduction in the number of private beds in the last six to nine months?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am not saying that. What I am saying in answer to the noble Lord is that there could be periods when 2,000 beds are not being occupied. My under-standing of the occupancy of private beds is that they have tended to decrease over the last year or two.
§ Lord PLATTMy Lords, speaking as one who has no financial interest in this matter whatever, are Her Majesty's Government fully aware that quite apart from the question of money, there are all kinds of very important arguments on this question? Are Her Majesty's Government further aware that if there are abuses—and I have no doubt that in certain cases there are—other ways exist of curbing those abuses than to close private beds? Will Her Majesty's Government give us some kind of assurance that, whatever may be the powers of the Secretary of State, there will be full discussion about the question of closing beds?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord is referring to the closure of private beds within the National Health Service or to the closure of beds for some other reason. However, the Government are committed to a policy of separating, not abolishing, private beds from the National Health Service. This has been the policy of the Government for some time, and it is the policy which the Government propose to carry out.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that it is critically important that the nation should be united in the desperate crisis through which we are going, and is not this nasty little vituperative action one more step to divide the nation within the profession—and a very honourable profession?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I could not agree more with the noble 9 Lord. He must realise, however, that there are two sides to the question. What he has just said about the organisation which is at present under discussion could easily apply to certain consultants who are working to rule.
§ Lord POPPLEWELLMy Lords, will not the noble Lord agree that, quite contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, has said about this action dividing the nation, the tendency towards establishing that the privilege of wealth will not get priority for treatment is more calculated to consolidate the nation than to divide it?
§ Lord CHALFONTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that, although one realises there are two sides to the question and that it is a very delicate question, I have in my possession a document which was issued by the Hospital Grants Committee for London hospitals and the National Union of Public Employees which gives a list of patients by name and which instructs those employees who belong to the National Union of Public Employees not to render any services of any kind to these patients? Will the noble Lord give an assurance that on no account will the health of these patients be allowed to suffer by this action?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, it is certainly the intention of the Government to do all that they possibly can to provide not only services to the National Health Service but whatever services are necessary for those who are able to use private beds within the National Health Service. Discussions go on at different levels, and I am hoping that ere long this matter will be resolved far more satisfactorily than appears to be the case at the moment.