§ 3.10 p.m.
§ LORD TREFGARNEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. In so doing, I have to declare an interest because I would be concerned with this trade when and if it were permitted.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they accept the recommendations contained in the Report of the Committee on the Export of Animals for Slaughter (Cmnd. 5566) and whether they will now authorise the resumption of this trade.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY (LORD BESWICK)My Lords, consideration of the O'Brien Committee's recommendations involves consultation with interests at home and abroad. The Government have received the views of the organisations concerned in the United Kingdom and have been in close touch with the European Commission and with the Governments of member States of the Community. The Government have undertaken in another place that the present policy will not be changed before the O'Brien Report has been debated.
§ LORD TREFGARNEMy Lords, as always, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Have the Government reached a view in this matter? After all, they have had the Report before them for some time. May I also ask whether it would be of great benefit to the farming industry, and those who carry these animals, for this trade now to be permitted?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the answer to the second part of the noble Lord's question is that of course those concerned in the trade think it would be to their benefit if the restrictions were lifted. So far as the first part of the question is concerned, Her Majesty's Government have undertaken to listen to the debate in another place.
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, would it not be best for all these "food animals" to be kept available for the British public?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, that is a point of view. I should also say, in considering the question of the eventual destination of these animals, that it is possible to export carcase beef.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, will the noble Lord give an indication as to when this matter will be debated in another place? Further, is he aware that certain beef animals produced in this country, especially Friesian bullocks, are popular on the Continent but are much less popular over here? This is the underlying point for the export of live animals.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, as to the timing, it had been hoped that there would be a debate before Christmas, but some of the emergency measures now being considered will possibly put that timetable back. As to the second part of what the noble Earl asked, whether or not a particular animal is popular has nothing to do with the welfare considerations behind this Report.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, is it not a well known fact that the pigeonholes of the Ministry of Agriculture are filled with real, authenticated, tested cases of cruelty arising from this particular trade? Is it not also a fact that the Balfour Committee which originally sat on the whole question of the export of livestock came down against it for two reasons; namely, that we had not the slaughterhouse accommodation, and that we had not the frozen tranport accommodation; and neither of those reasons are extant at the present time?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the Committee which sat under the noble Lord, Lord O'Brien, went into all these matters very thoroughly—I am certain that they might even have had access to these pigeonholes—and they came to the conclusion that under proper safeguards the export could be resumed. The question is of course whether those safeguards have been established.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, it would be extremely interesting if we could be told in whose interest this Motion is now before us.
§ LORD BESWICKSo far as I am aware, my Lords, there is no Motion before the House.
§ LORD TREFGARNEMy Lords, why is it necessary for the Government to have such widespread consultations now in this matter? Did not the Committee of the noble Lord, Lord O'Brien, have those consultations? Do the Government accept those recommendations or do they not; and if they do, why must they again consult?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord apparently did not hear what I said. The Report was to the effect that the restrictions could be lifted provided that certain safeguards were established. The question as to whether those safeguards are established is a matter upon which there is a difference of opinion, for example between the noble Lord who sits in front of me and my noble friend who sits behind me.
§ LORD MACKIE OF BENSHIEMy Lords, are the Government aware that the resumption of this trade might save them a great deal of money in deficiency payments?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, that may or may not be the case, but it is not the issue that was before the O'Brien Committee.
§ LORD SANDYSMy Lords, while recognising the need for further discussion in the form of a debate, and supporting my noble friend's Question, may I ask whether the Government would be prepared to say whether in respect of the 24 recommendations they have formed any opinion within the Ministry at the moment, since this matter concerns the reinforcement of groups of inspectors, and presumably the Ministry have given close attention to this administrative problem?
§ LORD BESWICKYes, my Lords, and it is because they have given very close; attention to the administrative problems involved that at the present time I am unable to say the line that they would take.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, could we find time in this House to debate this matter as the other House seems to be very busy at the moment, and would it not be a good idea if we were to have a debate on it in this House?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, that is a point I will bring before the usual channels; but, of course, as the noble Earl will know, he has certain rights in this House.