HL Deb 28 November 1974 vol 354 cc1496-9

3.26 p.m.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD)

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. If the House approves this Motion, then I wish to make a short Business Statement.

Moved, That Standing Order No. 44 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with for the purpose of enabling the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill to be taken through all its stages in one day.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, with the permission of the House, as your Lordships know the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill is now before another place and it is of the utmost importance that it should receive the Royal Assent by the end of to-night's sitting. It is natural that there may be some reservations regarding the provisions, but I believe it is the wish of the House that for the protection of our people and for the assistance of the authorities this Bill should receive the Royal Assent as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, it is quite impossible to say when we shall receive the Bill, but almost certainly it will be received some time during the very early hours of to-morrow morning. I am anxious not to seek to curtail the rights of noble Lords in any way. On the other hand, I wish to prevent unnecessary hardship by keeping noble Lords here throughout the night. The House will have an opportunity to debate the provisions of the Bill on the Motion of my noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich, and my noble friend will stress the fact that the Bill will have to be renewed in six months' time, if that is necessary. I intend to have immediate consultations, through the usual channels, to arrange a debate on capital punishment.

In the light of what I have said, I wonder whether the House will agree to the following proposals. If any noble Lord wishes to put down an Amendment to the Bill, it will be for the great convenience of the House if he will so notify the Clerks at the Table by six o'clock this evening. If noble Lords have any points to raise on any particular clause of the Bill, I am sure that it will be very helpful to the House if they will develop their points when speaking this afternoon on my noble friend's Motion. Then I will ask your Lordships if you will be willing to take the Bill formally through all its stages when it is received from another place, if, as I said, by six o'clock the Clerks have not been informed of any Amendments.

If your Lordships were prepared to accept these proposals I would inform the House of the situation at the end of the debate, and thus we could avoid keeping noble Lords present throughout the night unnecessarily. Naturally we shall need to keep a quorum and I would ask those who can to remain in order to see the Bill through. I make this suggestion for the convenience of the House, being fully aware of the responsibilities of the House when arrangements of this nature are suggested and agreed to, and certainly not in any sense seeking to curtail the right of any Member of your Lordships' House.

LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, I think my noble friends and I would wish to endorse what the Leader of the House has said. Obviously, to some extent the House is put to an inconvenience in this matter but it is an inconvenience which we regard as inevitable, and no blame attaches to the Government for having imposed this hardship upon us. I know that we would wish to assist the Government in securing the passage of their measure.

The Bill itself we shall be debating on the Motion but, quite clearly, part of its importance will lie upon the moral impact of a rapid passage into law and this would undoubtedly be blunted if we were to insist on our undoubted and full rights to discuss it at leisure and to amend it in detail. Speaking for myself, and I think also for my noble friends, we would not wish to amend the Bill if we could possibly avoid it, but I should like to make one point to the noble Leader. As the debate on the Motion proceeds this afternoon, it may be that suggestions or criticisms will be made which could be met by the Government in another place, and I would ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House to pass on to his right honourable and honourable friends there any suggestions we may make, so that if they find it possible to improve the Bill in another place they will take the opportunity and so give it to us in an improved form.

LORD BYERS

My Lords, we on these Benches would like to endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, has said. We are anxious to support the Government in the proposals they have brought forward. This is an exceptional situation and we would wish to assist them in every way possible. May I ask the noble Lord two questions? First, can he remind the House of what in fact is a quorum? I understand that it is only two.

LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE

It is three, my Lords.

LORD BYERS

Secondly, my Lords, on a matter of administration, how will the noble Lord the Leader of the House, let noble Lords know when the Bill is received from another place? I ask that because it may be at a very late stage in the Sitting of this House.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord's question, I must admit that at this stage I do not quite know how I shall communicate with your Lordships. But I will undertake immediately to have continuing consultations through the usual channels so that we can keep the House informed. I hope to be able to say something more about the timetable at the end of the debate, when we shall perhaps have a clearer view as to how another place will conduct its Committee stage and the selection of Amendments.

In reply to the other question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Byers, a quorum of three is necessary merely to keep your Lordships in being and able to continue a debate. But I am surprised that the noble Lord asked that question, because he should be well aware that he and his Party caused great difficulty for noble Lords opposite when they were in Government by calling a Division when there was not a quorum of 30, which meant that noble Lords opposite had to go to another day in order to ensure the passage of the Bill on broadcasting.

In regard to the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Hailsham, I can see difficulty in what is being asked of me because it would require the Government to table manuscript Amendments in another place, and having never been in another place I do not know whether such a procedure is open to them there. But I will certainly undertake this. As I said in my statement, the Act will certainly have to be renewed in six months' time and, certainly, if there are provisions in the Act which require revision it would be the wish of my right honourable friend to consider them and, if necessary, to bring forward amending legislation. I am fully sensitive of this point and will keep the House informed. I have really suggested this procedure to relieve unnecessary hardship on Members, but I appeal to noble Lords who can be present to remain through the night and into the early hours of the morning, if necessary, to ensure the passage of this Bill.