§ 2.48 p.m.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government to state whether the exercises and manoeuvres undertaken by the Royal Navy in conjunction with the South African Navy have been successful and useful.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, there have been no formal joint exercises or manœuvres with the South African Navy since this Government took Office. I imagine that the noble Lord is referring to the weapon training undertaken by a group of Royal Naval ships after they had called at South Africa in October on their way to deploy East of the Cape. Weapon training is always useful, particularly during a long voyage, in maintaining operational efficiency.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, may I ask whether a consensus might not be achieved in Britain to the effect that the first duty of any Government is to safeguard British power, British lives and British routes of communication? Might not we achieve that consensus in place of the unworthy politics which we have been experiencing? When they come to survey this matter, will the Government give primary consideration to that aspect and come to the conclusion that the Cape route is absolutely essential to our life?
LORD WINTER BOTTOMMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, is overstressing the importance of the Cape route. I am not saying that it is unimportant, but any Government must take into account the many factors that enter into the interest of this nation. Whereas some individuals may weight the defence element as the most important, others may weight the economic element as more important. Her Majesty's Government are striking a balance between these two factors.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, how can the noble Lord suggest 279 that any adverse economic effect could be achieved by friendship with South Africa? South Africa is our best customer in the southern seas, apart from being important to us strategically.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I do not think that it is a question of friendship. It is a question of collaboration and close co-operation in the field of joint operations with our Armed Forces. It is that which is in question.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, has the noble Lord noticed that, while it is said by the Government that this matter affects our relationship and co-operation with South Africa on defence matters and that maritime routes affect our standing with ex-British territories in South Africa, this is not what has happend to the French, who have supplied submarines and a large number of other weapons of war but against whom there has been no criticism whatsoever from the French territories? Does not this suggest that these objections are not in the interests of Britain, but rather that they are perpetrated by those with extreme Left-Wing views?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the French have no Simonstown Agreement. Also the French are very far from this situation. The French have a somewhat—
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALECommon sense!
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMI was about to say a somewhat less idealistic view of these problems. We happen to have different problems and a different approach.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether before long we shall have the opportunity of discussing the Simonstown Agreement in this House?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, may I draw the noble Lord's attention to the Statement which was made in another place by the Leader of that House in which he said that a preliminary Statement on defence policy would be made towards the end of this month and that there would be an opportunity to debate that Statement? It is within the Defence Review that Her 280 Majesty's Government are studying the whole question of the Simonstown Agreement.
§ BARONESS ELLESMy Lords, in considering the economic advantages in South Africa, will the noble Lord take into account the recent statement by President Kaunda and the Government of Frelimo in Mozambique who have very good economic relations with South Africa?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I hope that every nation in South Africa has good economic relations with all the other nations in Africa.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, the Question asked was whether the exercises have been successful and useful. In considering that Question, must we not take a wider view as to how far they strengthen apartheid in South Africa; how far they offend Commonwealth countries in Africa, and how far they discredit the moral status of this country?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, my noble friend is right. This is one factor which Her Majesty's Government are taking into account, but it is a factor which we, as a House, can balance towards the end of the month when we discuss the preliminary communications on the White Paper.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, with great respect to my noble friend who used to be the Member for Eton and Slough, does he really suggest to the House that we can all go and drink vodka with the Russians next year but that we must not drink gin with the South Africans?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am sorry but I must intervene even though my noble friend was very unfairly provoked. Questions should be put to the Minister and not to one noble Lord on the other side of the House.