HL Deb 23 May 1974 vol 351 cc1536-8

11.8 a.m.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will promote an Inquiry into the causes of dissatisfaction in the administrative grades of the National Health Service, on the lines of the Wider Issues Review initiated by the Civil Service Department in the case of the Civil Service.

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, the Government believe that their reservations when in Opposition on the Reorganisation of the National Health Service have been largely justified by events. However, the vital issue now is to let the Health Service settle down in its new form. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services does not therefore consider that the present time would be suitable for such an Inquiry as the noble Lord suggests.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, while finding that Answer somewhat contradictory in itself, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Government would look at the possibility of setting up within the Department a section which should be designed to ensure that those working in the Health Service find good career prospects? Before the noble Lord replies to that question, may I point out to him that that admirable suggestion was put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Garns-worthy, in a debate we had on the Whitley machinery on October 21, 1971.

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, the noble Lord will know, as will all Members of your Lordships' House, that there are certain difficulties as a result of the time scale. The Bill received the Royal Assent in July of last year and became effective on April 1 this year. That was a very short period. There are difficulties. My right honourable friend is fully aware of them and intends to see that the various matters which cause concern at the present moment are looked into.

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, is it not a fact that the personnel administration side of the National Health Service has been very much strengthened as a result of the reorganisation, both in the Department itself and in the Regional and Area Health Authorities?

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, that is perfectly true and, as the noble Lord will know, there have been a fair number of appointments in that field. Much of the difficulty which we are experiencing at the present moment I think will be successfully resolved when the new personnel system gets into operation and is able to deal with these various matters.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, would the Minister agree that rather than saying that the administration has been strengthened, it is a fact that possibly it has been overloaded?

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, with very great respect to my noble friend, only time will tell whether that is so or not.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, with even greater respect to the noble Lord, is he not aware that anybody with any knowledge of the Health Services realises that at the moment the dissatisfaction in the administrative grades is absolutely endemic? Will the noble Lord accept that many people will discover what I am afraid is the very unfortunate complacency if you wish, of both Front Benches on this matter, which augers ill for the future settling down of the Service?

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, with the very greatest respect I do not think that the allegation of complacency can be levelled at this Government. This Government are aware of the difficulties, and, as the noble Lord knows probably better than anybody in your Lordships' House, there have been some 1,700 appointments made in relation to the reorganisation scheme and there have been only 56 complaints. It is unfortunate that there are 56, but it is a comparatively small number having regard to the number of new appointments that have been made.

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, with rather less respect, is the noble Lord aware that the last Government were not complacent at all in this matter either?

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I did not even make that allegation.

LORD AUCKLAND

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that while the new organisation must be given an opportunity to settle down, there is widespread concern that appointments to the community health councils have not all yet been made, and may not be made for another two months or so? Bearing in mind the extreme value of the voluntary help given to the National Health Service, would not the noble Lord think that this gives rise to very great concern throughout all grades of the Health Service?

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I have acknowledged the difficulties with which the Government are faced. What the noble Lord says is perfectly true; but these matters are being dealt with and many people in your Lordships' House realise that the time factor was not sufficient to do what should have been done before April 1. The Government are proceeding apace, and I think we owe a debt of gratitude to the Staff Commission for the way in which they have handled the situation.

LORD SEGAL

My Lords, would it not be rather unfortunate to scrutinise the roots of the new Health Service before this young plant has been given the chance to grow?

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, sometimes one has to accept the roots and to give them some sort of added incentive to develop.

BARONESS GAITSKELL

My Lords, would not the Minister agree that if we have any more requests for Inquiries, Commissions or reviews, Parliament had better shut up shop and let them get on with it?