HL Deb 16 May 1974 vol 351 cc1138-53

" .—(1) If it appears to the court just to do so—

  1. (a) on an application for an enforcement order; or
  2. (b) on an application made by a debtor or hirer under this paragraph after service on him of—
    1. (i) a default notice, or
    2. (ii) a notice under section (Duty to give notice before taking certain action) (1) or (Duty to give notice of termination (non-default cases)) (1); or
  3. (c) in an action brought by a creditor or owner to enforce a regulated agreement or any security, or recover possession of any goods or land to which a regulated agreement relates,
the court may make an order under this section (a "time order").

(2) A time order shall provide for one or both of the following as the court considers just—

  1. (a) the payment by the debtor or hirer or any surety of any sum owned under a regulated agreement or a security by such instalments, payable at such times, as the court, having regard to the means of the debtor or hirer and any surety, considers reason able;
  2. (b) the extension or further extension of a period specified in a default notice under section 87(1)(b)."

After Clause 125 insert the following new clause:

Supplemental provisions about time orders

" .—(1) Where in accordance with rules of court an offer to pay any sum by instalments is made by the debtor or hirer and accepted by the creditor or owner, the court may in accordance with rules of court make a time order under section (Time orders) (2)(a) without hearing evidence of means if the order is not more onerous to the debtor or hirer than that offer.

(2) In the case of a hire-purchase or conditional sale agreement only, a time order under section (Time orders) (2)(a) may deal with sums which, although not payable by the debtor at the time the order is made, would if the agreement continued in force become payable under it subsequently.

(3) A time order under section (Time orders) (2)(a) shall not be made where the regulated agreement is secured by a pledge if, by virtue of regulations made under section (Duty to give notice before taking certain action) (4), 86(3) or (Duty to give notice of termination (non-default cases)) (4), service of a notice is not necessary for enforcement of the pledge.

(4) Where, following the making of a time order in relation to a regulated hire-purchase or conditional sale agreement or a regulated consumer hire agreement, the debtor or hirer is in possession of the goods, he shall be treated (except in the case of a debtor to whom the creditor's title has passed) as a bailee or (in Scotland) a custodier of the goods under the terms of the agreement, notwithstanding that the agreement has been terminated.

(5) Where a time order under section (Time orders) (2)(b) is made, sections 87 and 89 shall apply with such modifications as are necessary to give effect to the order.

(6) On the application of any person affected by a time order, the court may vary or revoke the order."

After Clause 125 insert the following new clause:

Protection orders

" . The court, on the application of the creditor or owner under a regulated agreement, may make such orders as it thinks just for protecting any property of the creditor or owner or property subject to any security, from damage or depreciation pending the determination of any proceedings under this Act, including orders restricting or prohibiting use of the property or giving directions as to its custody."

Clause 133, page 69, line 1, leave out subsection (7).

After Clause 134 insert the following new clause:

Power to impose conditions, or suspend operation of order

".—(1) If it considers it just to do so, the court may in an order made by it in relation to a regulated agreement include provisions—

  1. (a) making the operation of any term of the order conditional on the doing of specified acts by any party to the proceedings;
  2. (b) suspending the operation of any term of the order either—
    1. (i) until such time as the court subsequently directs, or
    2. (ii) until the occurrence of a specified act or omission.

(2) In the case of a consumer hire agreement, the court shall not so use its powers under subsection (1)(b) as to extend the period for which, under the terms of the agreement, the hirer is entitled to possession of the goods to which the agreement relates.

(3) On the application of any person affected by a provision included under subsection (1), the court may vary the provision."

After Clause 134 insert the following new clause:

Power to vary agreements and securities

" . The court may in an order made by it under this Act include such provision as it considers just for amending any agreement or security in consequence of a term of the order."

Clause 136, page 70, line 8, after ("to") insert ("such evidence as is adduced concerning").

Clause 137, page 70, line 31, after ("may") insert ("if the court thinks just"),

Clause 137, Page 70, line 33, leave out ("within the prescribed period").

Clause 137, Page 70, line 42, leave out ("initiated within the prescribed period").

After Clause 138, insert the following new clause:

Jurisdiction and parties

" .—(1) The county court shall have jurisdiction to hear and determine—

  1. (a) any action by the creditor or owner to enforce a regulated agreement or any security relating to it;
  2. (b) any action to enforce any linked transaction against the debtor or hirer or his relative;
  3. (c) any application for the grant of an enforcement order
  4. (d) any application for the grant, variation or revocation of a time order, or the variation of a provision included under section (Power to impose conditions or suspend operation of order) (1).
and such an action or application shall not be brought in any other court.

(2) Where an action or application is brought in the High Court which, by virtue of subsection (1), ought to have been brought in the county court it shall not be treated as improperly brought, but shall be transferred to the county court.

(3) In Scotland the sheriff court for the district in which the debtor or hirer resides or carries on business, or resided or carried on business at the date on which he last made a payment under the agreement, shall have jurisdiction to hear and determine any action or application falling within subsection (1) and such an action or application shall not be brought in any other court.

(4) Except as may be provided by rules of court, all the parties to a regulated agreement, and any surety, shall be made parties to any proceedings relating to the agreement."

After Clause 135 insert the following new clause:

Power to declare rights of parties

" .—(1) Where under any provision of this Act a thing can be done by a creditor or owner on an enforcement order only, and either—

  1. (a) the court dismisses (except on technical grounds only) an application for an enforcement order, or
  2. (b) where no such application has been made or such an application has been dismissed on technical grounds only, the debtor or hirer, or any surety, applies to the court for a declaration under this subsection,
the court may if it thinks just make a declaration that the creditor or owner is not entitled to do that thing, and thereafter no application for an enforcement order in respect of it shall be entertained.

(2) Where a regulated agreement is cancelled under section 69 or terminated under section 91, and the debtor or hirer applies to the court for a declaration under this subsection, the court may make a declaration that the agreement was so cancelled or terminated."

Clause 139, page 72, line 5, after ("action") insert ("or application")

Clause 139, Page 72, line 5, leave out ("126(1)") and insert ("(Jurisdiction and parties) (1)")

Clause 139, Page 72,line 11, leave out from ("application") to ("and") in line 12, and insert ("by a debtor or hirer or any surety under section (Time orders) (1)(b) or (Power to declare rights of parties) (1)(b)").—(Lord Shepherd.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 147 [Advertisements]:

4.35 p.m.

LORD ELTON moved Amendment No. 72: Page 76, line 38, after ("person or") insert ("the services of").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, after the rumble and crash of the bulldozers and rebuilding we are getting to the exact opposite end of the scale with respect to a very small Amendment. Your Lordships will remember that I drew your attention to this small point at Committee stage. In the clause as printed, one naturally assumes at first reading that we are considering only one category of people. That category consists of that "person or persons to whom he", that is the broker, "effects introductions". By taking the words, "person or persons" as standing together as a single phrase, which would be the normal usage, one has used up the alternative expressed in the word "or" before one has reached the end of the sentence; on reaching the end therefore one is left suspended awaiting the arrival of another "or" to satisfy the expectations aroused by one's encounter with the word "whether". In fact, we are in this clause considering not one but two categories of people. I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for explaining this to me in his letter. The two classes of people are, on the one hand, the broker, himself, and on the other those persons to whom he, the broker, effects introductions. The intention of this Amendment is to make this clear by breaking up the phrase "person or persons". This may already be clear to other noble Lords learned in the law, but to non-specialist noble Lords like myself it is not. Therefore, I hope the noble Lord the Leader of the House will accept this Amendment and the helpful spirit in which it is advanced. I beg to move.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, in view of the length of my previous speech, I think it behoves me to be brief. We are very happy with this Amendment, and are prepared to accept it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 157 [Powers of entry and inspection]:

LORD SHEPHERD moved Amendment No. 73: Page 81, line 29, after ("person") insert ("(i)").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 73, and also to speak to Amendment No. 74. Clause 157(1)(b) empowers a duly authorised officer of an enforcement authority who has reasonable cause to suspect a breach of the Bill to require the production of books and documents. This power may not cover information stored in computers which are widely used in the credit granting industry. To remedy this possible loophole, the Amendment requires a person having control of such information to provide a legible reproduction; for example, a print-out. My Lords, I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 74.

Amendment moved— Page 81, line 31, after ("it") insert— (or— (ii) having control of any information relating to a business recorded otherwise than in a legible form to provide a document containing a legible reproduction of the whole or any part of the information").(Lord Shepherd.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 163 [Defences]:

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 75. In light of the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, is not in his place, I think the rule is that another noble Lord may move. We accept that there is some oddity in this matter, and we are prepared to accept the Amendment. My Lords, I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 84, line 36, leave out ("the commission of the offence") and insert ("his act or omission").—(Lord Shepherd.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 76.

Amendment moved— Page 84, line 41, leave out ("the commission of such an offence") and insert ("such an act or omission").(Lord Shepherd.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I come before the House in abject apology. I was trying to be helpful, and I mistook my piece of paper. I am quite certain that the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, also knew that I was wrong but he did not rise to get me out of my difficulties. Perhaps since this is the last of the three Amendments, if I were to explain the Government's position and then on the next stage of the Bill, having got your Lordships' support for the view, persuade the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, to allow me to take out the two previous Amendments which have gone on to the—

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, might it be better and in order if someone were to move Amendment No. 77 so that the noble Lord could object to it. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 85, line 2, leave out ("commission of the offence") and insert ("act or omission").—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, the offending noble Lord has now walked into the Chamber. We accept that it is odd to refer to the commission of an offence in a clause which relates to a situation in which a person has been charged but not at this stage convicted of an offence. Indeed, the clause sets out a defence which is available in the circumstances described. If the clause could be considered in isolation, we would be happy to accept the Amendment as proposed to meet the criticism which can be levelled at the present text. But there is a problem, and I think the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, will be ready to spring to my assistance. Clause 163(1) follows Section 24(1) of the Trade Descriptions Act 1963, and Section 25(1) of the Fair Trading Act 1973. All these provisions will be enforced by the local weights and measures authority and it will be possible for a trader to be charged with an offence under, for example, the Trade Descriptions Act and the Consumer Credit Act, and in each case to plead the defence provided. Confusion might ensue if the Bill were worded differently from the other two enactments in this respect. Since its meaning is clear, we think that the words that are in the Bill as now drafted should remain.

My Lords, this is a view which I sought to pursue to-day and I have been convinced that it is so—that there would be doubt with legislation for a similar purpose or general purpose; if one had a different phrase in one Bill from that in the other two places one could raise an area of doubt, particularly in the magistrates' courts. Although one can say that the wording is perhaps better within the Amendment the noble Lord has in mind, it would create considerable difficulty and doubt within the courts. So, having accepted the first two Amendments, which I should not have done, I hope that the noble Lord will agree that it would be right that we should not accept his third one, and will devise ways and means of removing the previous two Amendments.

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, I confess that my intervention was not based on a close study of either these Amendments or the two Acts to which the noble Lord has referred. I must say that I think my inclination would be, in a moment, to withdraw this Amendment. But since the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, has now arrived and no doubt will have heard what the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has had to say, perhaps for the moment I could suspend my application to withdraw so that he may intervene.

LORD AIREDALE

My Lords, I am sorry for not having been in my place. Your Lordships seem to have been making extraordinarily quick progress and I was taken unaware. I shall clearly have to consider what the Minister has said about the Amendment. For the time being, I will place myself in the hands of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, as to what should be done. I am most grateful to the noble Viscount for having stepped into my shoes.

THE EARL OF LIMERICK

My Lords, since the noble Lord the Leader of the House came close to chiding me for not coming to his assistance, I would say that he has been so helpful to me that I would have leapt to his assistance if I had had the temerity to think—since he gave the appearance of changing his mind—he had not acted without the deepest consideration.

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 165 [No further sanctions for breach of Act]:

4.40 p.m.

LORD SHEPHERD: moved Amendment No. 78: Page 85, line 23, leave out ("adjudicating").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I cannot go wrong here. Clause 165(2) at present allows the Director to take account of breaches of the Bill in exercising his adjudicating functions. This is too narrow. It would be absurd if the Director, in exercising an administrative function, had to ignore breaches of the Bill. For example, it would be relevant to whether the Director should make a determination under Clause 49(3) allowing canvassing of overdraft agreements if the creditor had repeatedly committed offences under Clause 49(1) or 49(2). The Amendment removes the limitation by allowing the Director to take into account breaches of the Bill in exercising any of his functions. My Lords, I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 167 [Statements by creditor or owner to be binding]:

LORD SHEPHERD moved Amendment No. 79: Page 86, line 29, leave out ("established a defence under") and insert ("proved the matters referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b) of").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment remedies a defect in Clause 167 as amended in Committee. Clause 167(3), which was added by Government amendment in Committee, enables creditors and owners to escape being bound by Clause 167 in respect of statements and notices given by them if the count is satisfied that, if prosecuted for failure to give a correct statement, they could have established a defence under Clause 163(1)—that is, the mistake in the statement was outside their control. However, as drafted, the clause does not make clear whether Clause 163(2) is relevant to satisfying the court in this regard. That subsection provides that if a defence under Clause 163(1) invokes the allegation that an offence was the fault of another person seven days' notice must be given to the court identifying the person concerned.

It is not the intention that a creditor relying on Clause 167(3) should have to give notice identifying the person responsible before he can satisfy the court in proceedings concerning a mistake in a statement. The Amendment accordingly replaces the words "established a defence under" Clause 163(1) with the words proved the matters referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b) of … This makes it clear that the creditor does not have to identify the person responsible before showing that the mistake in a statement was outside the creditor's control. My Lords, I beg to move.

LORD SEEBOHM

My Lords, this question of mistakes is a difficult one and I do not think we quite have the answer. The banks are not happy with this. It does not go back to existing law. We should very much like to have further conversations and look at it again, if it is possible to do that.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, my door is always open and clearly there is another stage, or series of stages, in another place. If the noble Lord would like to see the Minister who will be responsible for the Bill in another place, which may be helpful, I should be happy to arrange it.

LORD SEEBOHM

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord very much. As this is perhaps the last time I shall speak on this Bill, I should like formally to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, and his colleagues for the amount of attention they have given to the clearing banks' case, which has been enormously helpful.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 171 [Service of notices etc.]:

LORD JACQUES

My Lords, Clause 88 which dealt with the service of default notices has been left out of the Bill by a previous Amendment, No. 29; and this Amendment transfers the provisions thereof to Clause 171. It is therefore consequential. My Lords, I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 88, line 13, at end insert— ("(3) Without prejudice to any other way of giving or serving it, a notice under section (Duty to give notice before taking certain action) (1), a default notice or a notice under section (Duty to give notice of determination (non-default cases)) (1) is properly served on the person who is a debtor or hirer under an agreement if it is addressed to the person last known to the creditor or owner as the debtor or hirer under that agreement, and is delivered at or sent by post to, the address of that person last known to the creditor or owner. (4) As respects the service of notices such as are referred to in subsection (3), section 9 of the Administration of Estates Act 1925 and section 3 of the Administration of Estates Act (Northern Ireland) 1955 (vesting of estate of intestate in Probate Judge) shall be disregarded. (5) A notice served under subsection (3) shall be treated as served on the day of delivery or the day following the day of posting, as the case may be.")—(Lord Jacques.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 176 [Power to alter monetary limits etc.]:

LORD JACQUES

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will speak to Amendments Nos. 81 and 82 together. They are both purely drafting Amendments which are consequential on an Amendment to Clause 8 which was agreed in Committee. My Lords, I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 90, line 23, leave out ("8(1)") and insert ("8(2)").—(Lord Jacques.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD JACQUES

My Lords, I beg to movement Amendment No. 82.

Amendment moved— Page 90, line 27, leave out ("8(1)") and insert ("8(2)").—(Lord Jacques.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 2 [Examples of use of new terminology]:

4.45 p.m.

LORD JACQUES

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will move Amendments Nos. 83 to 85. These are all drafting Amendments to pave the way for Amendment No. 87 by which we are proposing to add in a new example to those given in Schedule 2 in order to illustrate how the new provisions being added to Clause 18 will work. My Lords, I beg to move these Amendments.

Amendments moved—

Page 107, line 15, after ("22") insert ("23");

Page 107, line 22, after ("17") insert ("23");

Page 107, line 31, after ("18") insert ("23").—(Lord Jacques.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD JACQUES moved Amendment No. 86: Page 113, line 4, after ("£7,000") insert ("(having regard to payments into the account made from time to time by J)").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is in response to a point raised in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Helsby. He suggested that it was not clear from the facts in Example 19 in Schedule 2 that the agreement described was a running account agreement as stated in the Analysis. The Amendment, by inserting into the facts in the Example a reference to "payments into the account made from time to time by the" debtor, makes it clear that the Example is dealing with a running account credit. My Lords, I beg to move.

LORD HELSBY

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for this Amendment which covers the point I raised. I still feel that possibly we have been taking a somewhat broad view of what is a running account, but that is something that may come out in further discussion on Clause 10. I agree that, so far as this example goes, it is now in accordance with the definition of "running account credit" in Clause 10. May I take this opportunity of thanking the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, and the noble Lord the Leader of the House for the kindness they have done to me, and other noble Lords who have had an interest in this matter, on behalf of the clearing banks.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD JACQUES moved Amendment No. 87: Page 114, line 36, at end insert—

("EXAMPLE 23

Facts. Under an oral agreement made on 10th January, X (an individual) has an overdraft on his current account at the Y bank with a credit limit of £100. On 15th February, when his overdraft stands at £90, X draws a cheque for £25. It is the first time that X has exceeded his credit limit, and on 16th February the bank honours the cheque. Analysis. The agreement of 10th January is a consumer credit agreement for running-account credit. The agreement of 15th-16th February varies the earlier agreement by adding a term allowing the credit limit to be exceeded merely temporarily. By section 81(2) the later agreement is deemed to revoke the earlier agreement and reproduce the combined effect of the two agreements. By section 81(4), Part V of this Act (except section 56) does not apply to the later agreement. By section 18(5) a term allowing a merely temporary excess over the credit limit is not to be treated as a separate agreement, or as providing fixed-sum credit. The whole of the £115 owed to the hank by X on 16th February is therefore running-account credit.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment adds a new example to the examples given in Schedule 2 in order to illustrate how the new provisions which are being added to Clause 18 by Amendment No. 8 will work. My Lords, I beg to move.

VISCOUNT AMORY

My Lords, the inclusion of these examples in the Bill is a very interesting innovation and it will be extremely interesting as a guide in the future to see how they work out in practice.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 183 [Definitions]:

LORD JACQUES

My Lords, Clause 41(3) empowers the Secretary of State to include in directions for disposing of an appeal against a licensing, et cetera, decision of the Director a direction for payment of costs. The Scottish term for "costs" is "expenses". The Amendment covers this technicality. My Lords, I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 95, line 22, at end insert— (""costs", in relation to Scotland, means expenses").—(Lord Jacques.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD JACQUES

My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the new clause on Enforcement orders: general principles, which was dealt with in Amendment No. 48. It replaces and amends Clause 127 in the Bill. My Lords, I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 96, line 33, at end insert (""enforcement order" has the meaning given by section (Enforcement orders: general principles) (a)").—(Lord Jacques.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD JACQUES moved Amendment No. 90: Page 97, line 13, after ("means") insert ("subject to section 171").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is purely consequential. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD JACQUES moved Amendment No. 91: Page 100, line 32, leave out ("88") and insert ("171").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment consequential on the deletion of Clause 88 by Amendment No. 29, and the transfer of its provision to Clause 171 by Amendment No. 80. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD JACQUES moved Amendment No. 92: Page 101, line 11, at end insert— (""technical grounds" shall be construed in accordance with subsection (4A)").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on Amendments in earlier clauses; namely, Clauses 105, 124 and 126. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD JACQUES moved Amendment No. 93: Page 101, line 13, at end insert (""time order" has the meaning given by section (Time orders) (1)")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 93 is consequential on the new clause on time orders which introduces into the Bill the new concept of a time order allowing the debtor or hirer time to pay or put right a breach of an agreement. Since it is purely consequential, I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD JACQUES moved Amendment No. 94: Page 101, line 39, leave out ("term if the term") and insert ("provision if the provision")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 94 is consequential on Amendments Nos. 31 to 37 to Clause 105. This Amendment meets the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Helsby, in Committee. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD JACQUES moved Amendment No. 95: Page 101, line 40, at end insert— ("(4A) An application dismissed by the court or the Director shall, if the court or the Director (as the case may be) so certifies, be taken to be dismissed on technical grounds only.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on Amendments made to earlier clauses, namely, Clauses 105, 124 and 126. Since this Amendment is purely consequential, I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 3.—[Transitional and commencement provisions]:

4.55 p.m.

LORD JACQUES moved Amendment No. 96: Page 117, line 5, leave out ("Sections 106 and 107 come") and insert ("Section 110 comes")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment which is consequential on the drafting Amendment made in Committee which combined what had been in Clauses 106 and 107 into what is new Clause 110. I beg to move.

VISCOUNT AMORY

My Lords, may I take advantage of this Amendment just to say one thing. This Schedule deals with transitional arrangements. I should like only to express the hope—and I am sure Ministers will feel this themselves—that when it comes to fixing the appointed days, account will be given of the adjustments that will have to be made by the credit-giving institutions to bring their arrangements in line with the Bill.

My Lords, as this may be the last opportunity that I shall have to speak on this Bill, may I pay a respectful tribute to the invariable courtesy we have received from the noble Lords, Lord Shepherd and Lord Jacques, throughout each stage of the Bill. Just now, when the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, inadvertently accepted an Amendment when he meant to oppose it with vehemence the slight blush that suffused his benign features was most endearing when looked at from this side of the House.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, it had been my intention that that was the last occasion that I would speak on this Bill. I am not certain whether I am going to persuade my noble friend Lord Jacques to take the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, and retrieve the error to which the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, referred.

My Lords, as this is the last occasion that I shall speak on this Bill, I should like to express to everyone—to the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, and the many others who sit in all quarters of the House—our gratitude for the effort that has been put into this Bill both on the Floor of the House and in various Committee Rooms, which has ensured that we have now a very much better Bill than the one originally introduced in another place, and which was introduced initially. On the other hand, if I may be slightly provocative, I really wonder—and perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, might consider this point—whether a Bill of this nature, recognising all its complexities, would not better go to a small Select Committee where the more intimate conversation and the greater access to papers would give a much better arrangement for dealing with a Bill of this kind, rather than trying to deal with it on the Floor of your Lordships' House. This is only a matter of reflection so far as I am concerned. I do not propose to be a great innovator of change in your Lordships' House as long as I am Leader of it; if change comes, it will be forced on me. However, I wonder whether, when we have a Bill of similar complexity in future, this is something we might consider through the usual channels in the interests of the House as a whole, in seeking a better procedure, particularly for the Committee stage.

THE EARL OF LIMERICK

My Lords, I wish to intervene to say only two things. First, I would say that the suggestion which the noble Lord the Leader of the House has just made is one that I am sure will be considered by my noble friends whose business it is. Secondly, I would echo the tributes paid to my noble friend Lord Amory, and would add another, to the stamina and fleetness of foot of the noble Lord the Leader of the House and the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, in dealing with 96 Amendments in approximately even time—96 minutes, if I am right. The high percentage of the Amendments from other Benches which were accepted, and the alacrity with which they were accepted, made me a little regretful that we did not ourselves put down more Amendments. But much progress was made outside Parliament. Clearly, this was the right way to do it. We are most grateful for the way in which the matter has been handled.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.