NORTHERN IRELAND (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) ACT 1973 (AMENDMENT) ORDER 1974 (Hansard, 15 May 1974)

§ LORD WINDLESHAM
My Lords, it is common ground between both sides of the House that Schedule 2 of the Emergency Provisions Act should be dispensed with just as soon as possible. However, in the circumstances of Northern Ireland to-day, proscription can help to see that justice is done, if only because the offences connected with proscribed organisations are subject to trial by a single judge as scheduled offences. Although your Lordships may have some reservations about single judge courts—and I notice that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, is with us who, of course, is now concerned with studying this whole subject—I believe that they constituted, when set up some nine months ago, an effective legal process in the light of the intimidation which threatened at the time 1094 to bring the courts to a standstill in Northern Ireland.
My Lords, on the other hand I appreciate that in the judgment of the Government certain advantages may result from the passing of this Order. So far as Sinn Fein is concerned, it will give those who are understood to form the political arm of the I.R.A. the opportunity to put forward their political views without any possible excuse being advanced that they are being driven to resort to violence because they are not allowed to engage in political activity. It will also give the public at large the opportunity to see what sort of support Sinn Fein can attract for its objectives.
Noble Lords will remember that the previous Administration last year afforded the people of Northern Ireland the opportunity to state their views on the future of the Province by voting in the Border poll. The result of that poll does not lead to any belief that the objectives of Sinn Fein will command much support at the polling booths in any future elections. But it can be put to the test.
Therefore, I understand the reasons for the Government laying this Order before the House, although I am simply not close enough to events in Northern Ireland to comment on the timing or on the inclusion of the Ulster Volunteer Force in the Order. This is a subject which, of course, has been discussed on many occasions before. The great difficulty is in the overlap that tends to apply between the political and the military wings. A man who regards himself as a political supporter of the aims of Sinn Fein one week can only too easily because of changed circumstances a week or two later become a militant supporter. There is an ebb and flow. It is not, unfortunately, a static situation. But this is a matter of judgment. We know that the Secretary of State, the Minister of State and the Parliamentary Secretary in this House are giving the most careful and conscientious thought to the political actions as well as the military actions which are being taken in Northern Ireland, and we are content to accept their judgment on this matter.
I should like to ask the noble Lord two questions. First, did the Joint Select Committee on Statutory Instruments when they considered this Order raise any matter of which the House ought to be 1095 aware? Secondly, if the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, thought his question to Lord Elwyn-Jones was a fast ball, I should like him to take careful note of this. Since the noble Lord has now been in Northern Ireland for ten weeks, I think it is, perhaps we might give him a proficiency test, by asking him to tell us which are the proscribed organisations which remain in Schedule 2 to the Act.

§ LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGE
My Lords, I think both balls are a little fast, and I shall have to ask for advice in answering both of them. This is not a very serious admission. The important point has been covered by the noble Lord. There is every reason, I think, to give extra opportunity, particularly, curiously enough, for the U.V.F., to express their enthusiasm through politics rather than through violence. There have been a number of inquiries from them about how soon they would be allowed to appear as serious citizens and so on. I think this may really be quite valuable. Meanwhile, the value of the proscription as an instrument of the law is almost entirely nil. I do not think anybody at the moment is confined, either under detention or in prison, for the single reason that they belong to a proscribed organisation. So I think the power of the Security Forces will in no way be lessened, and that we shall give some kind of fillip to those people who feel strongly but believe that they can express their views other than by violence. I shall write to the noble Lord in response to the fast balls he bowled me.

§ LORD WINDLESHAM
My Lords, I am sure that the noble and learned Lord will write to me. In fact, I know the answer on proscribed organisations already. It was a test of pronunciation rather than anything else, so a letter will not suffice.