HL Deb 15 May 1974 vol 351 cc1092-5

6.54 p.m.

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGE) rose to move, That the Draft Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973 (Amendment) Order 1974, laid before the House on April 30, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. The effect of the Order is to remove the Ulster Volunteer Force and Sinn Fein from the list of proscribed organisations in the Emergency Provisions Act. This means that the offences in that Act—of belonging to, and supporting and contributing to proscribed organisations, and appearing in public apparently as a member of a proscribed organization—will no longer apply in relation to the U.V.F. and Sinn Fein. People will be free to belong and subscribe to those organisations, and give expression to the views of those organisations, without fear of prosecution under Sections 19 and 23 of the Emergency Provisions Act. The U.V.F. and Sinn Fein will be free to conduct their affairs openly, within the law.

The changes made by the Order reflect no weakening in the determination of the Government through the Security Forces to deal effectively with people engaged in violence. A number of organisations will continue to be proscribed; any member of the organisation whose appalling plans for violence and destruction were revealed in this House and in another place two days ago by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will continue to be liable to be prosecuted. Nor should it be thought that this Order gives members of the U.V.F. or Sinn Fein any kind of license to engage in violence. They will remain subject to the rest of the criminal law like everyone else, and will have to comply with it. The efforts of the Security Forces to bring to book anyone concerned in violence will continue, and membership of a lawful organisation will be no protection for a person involved in terrorism.

The Government hope that, by enabling the U.V.F. and Sinn Fein to operate openly, people who share the political opinions of those organisations will express them peacefully and within the law. The previous Administration acted on similar motives when they de-proscribed the Republican Clubs. In the past, it has not been possible, for example, for members of Sinn Fein to put forward their views about the future of Northern Ireland without fear of prosecution for belonging to a proscribed organisation. If your Lordships and Parliament approve this Order, the Secretary of State's action in making it will enable them to do so. Similarly, members of the U.V.F. will be able to circulate their views openly and without fear.

The powers of proscription are emergency powers. I think everyone in this House would agree that they should be used only when absolutely necessary, and should never be allowed to stifle the free and lawful expression of opinion. My right honourable friend is satisfied that these two organisations wish to engage ill lawful political activity. This Order will make that possible, while leaving the Security Forces with adequate powers to bring to book anyone who none the less engages in violence. My Lords, I beg to move.

Moved, That the Draft Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973 (Amendment) Order 1974, laid before the House on April 30, be approved.—(Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge.)

6.58 p.m.

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, it is common ground between both sides of the House that Schedule 2 of the Emergency Provisions Act should be dispensed with just as soon as possible. However, in the circumstances of Northern Ireland to-day, proscription can help to see that justice is done, if only because the offences connected with proscribed organisations are subject to trial by a single judge as scheduled offences. Although your Lordships may have some reservations about single judge courts—and I notice that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, is with us who, of course, is now concerned with studying this whole subject—I believe that they constituted, when set up some nine months ago, an effective legal process in the light of the intimidation which threatened at the time to bring the courts to a standstill in Northern Ireland.

My Lords, on the other hand I appreciate that in the judgment of the Government certain advantages may result from the passing of this Order. So far as Sinn Fein is concerned, it will give those who are understood to form the political arm of the I.R.A. the opportunity to put forward their political views without any possible excuse being advanced that they are being driven to resort to violence because they are not allowed to engage in political activity. It will also give the public at large the opportunity to see what sort of support Sinn Fein can attract for its objectives.

Noble Lords will remember that the previous Administration last year afforded the people of Northern Ireland the opportunity to state their views on the future of the Province by voting in the Border poll. The result of that poll does not lead to any belief that the objectives of Sinn Fein will command much support at the polling booths in any future elections. But it can be put to the test.

Therefore, I understand the reasons for the Government laying this Order before the House, although I am simply not close enough to events in Northern Ireland to comment on the timing or on the inclusion of the Ulster Volunteer Force in the Order. This is a subject which, of course, has been discussed on many occasions before. The great difficulty is in the overlap that tends to apply between the political and the military wings. A man who regards himself as a political supporter of the aims of Sinn Fein one week can only too easily because of changed circumstances a week or two later become a militant supporter. There is an ebb and flow. It is not, unfortunately, a static situation. But this is a matter of judgment. We know that the Secretary of State, the Minister of State and the Parliamentary Secretary in this House are giving the most careful and conscientious thought to the political actions as well as the military actions which are being taken in Northern Ireland, and we are content to accept their judgment on this matter.

I should like to ask the noble Lord two questions. First, did the Joint Select Committee on Statutory Instruments when they considered this Order raise any matter of which the House ought to be aware? Secondly, if the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, thought his question to Lord Elwyn-Jones was a fast ball, I should like him to take careful note of this. Since the noble Lord has now been in Northern Ireland for ten weeks, I think it is, perhaps we might give him a proficiency test, by asking him to tell us which are the proscribed organisations which remain in Schedule 2 to the Act.

LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGE

My Lords, I think both balls are a little fast, and I shall have to ask for advice in answering both of them. This is not a very serious admission. The important point has been covered by the noble Lord. There is every reason, I think, to give extra opportunity, particularly, curiously enough, for the U.V.F., to express their enthusiasm through politics rather than through violence. There have been a number of inquiries from them about how soon they would be allowed to appear as serious citizens and so on. I think this may really be quite valuable. Meanwhile, the value of the proscription as an instrument of the law is almost entirely nil. I do not think anybody at the moment is confined, either under detention or in prison, for the single reason that they belong to a proscribed organisation. So I think the power of the Security Forces will in no way be lessened, and that we shall give some kind of fillip to those people who feel strongly but believe that they can express their views other than by violence. I shall write to the noble Lord in response to the fast balls he bowled me.

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, I am sure that the noble and learned Lord will write to me. In fact, I know the answer on proscribed organisations already. It was a test of pronunciation rather than anything else, so a letter will not suffice.

On Question, Motion agreed to.