§ 2.56 p.m.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, having regard to the importance of Western defence and the Cape route, they will now supply arms for coastal supervision and defence to the Republic of South Africa.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS)My Lords, we have already made it clear that we shall continue to follow the policy which we pursued in our previous Administration of embargoing the sale of arms to South Africa.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, has the noble Lord read the statement in to-day's Times, including something said by the right honourable Tony Benn, that Her Majesty's Government could in no circumstances sell to South Africa arms which could lead to repression? Is the noble Lord aware that no one but a fool would use submarines, or long-distance reconnaissance aeroplanes, for local repression?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I would remind the noble Lord that more than one type of arms is involved in the consideration which Her Majesty's Government are currently conducting in a comprehensive way in regard to policy respecting the supply of arms to South Africa.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, if the Government are currently conducting it, why did Anthony Benn make the statement yesterday as if it was finished? Will they reconsider this, because the Cape route is extremely important not only for our defence but for our very standard of living.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the point raised by the noble Lord is one of the many very relevant factors which will be fully borne in mind in the course of this review.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, if the Government changed their mind and allowed the supply of some of these arms, he could give a guarantee that Mr. Scanlon would allow it?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is a matter for speculation which Government finally get the best out of Mr. Scanlon and the trade union movement.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, arising from his own reply, may I ask the Minister whether, in the review, he is considering the proposal of all the Asian nations that the Indian Ocean should be neutralised, thus making unnecessary the supervision of the Cape?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, as the noble Lord knows, there is presently proceding a general review of our defence commitment and policy. No doubt the review in regard to our South African commitment will, from time to 1011 time, overlap that larger review, but I am sure that the kind of consideration which my noble friend has mentioned will come into both.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, to how many countries other than the liberal democracies are Her Majesty's Government prepared to sell arms? Secondly, if there are other than liberal democracies to whom Her Majesty's Government are prepared to sell arms, what distinction do the Government make in the case of South Africa?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, if the noble Earl would care to put down a Question, I will endeavour to get the information for him. However, I must warn him that relations, especially in this area, vary from time to time between us and other countries. But if the noble Earl tables a Question I will see what I can do.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, in view of the wording of the Question, can my noble friend tell the House whether the function of coastal supervision is appropriately carried out by submarines?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSNot without notice, my Lords.