§ 2.49 p.m.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the total of authorised bodies accredited to London Embassies of Russia and her West European satellites; also what is the comparable figure of British bodies accredited to reciprocal Embassies in the Warsaw Pact orbit.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, there are approximately 40 Soviet and East European official organisations registered in the United Kingdom. There are about 21 British organisations similarly represented in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Such bodies are not accredited to Embassies.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, arising out of that reply, in which it is a little difficult to discover its relationship to the context of the Question because there are agencies as against recognised postes de mission, would it not appear from these figures that since the balance of trade for Russia is so strongly in their favour—now running. I understand, at the rate of over £200 million a year—that some of it is redundant? Would it not also appear, therefore, that those personnel are occupied with the collection and seeking of information, a euphemism for espionage, or with the dissemination of dissidence and subversion in all its forms? That is the first question. May I add this second question. Since it is understood that a new Soviet Embassy is to be opened in Dublin, whence passage of personnel is presumably without hindrance into England, in what way is protection going to be undertaken on security grounds against the activities of those personnel?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I regret very much if the Answer I have given has not met the points the noble Lord had in mind when he drafted the Question. If he will look at his own Question, I think he will see that that, too, presents a certain difficulty as to precisely what is needed in reply. I see that he has put down "West European" when he obviously, I think, meant "East European". However, I will endeavour to give more information on this point, if the noble Lord or anybody else will approach me or put down another Question. I have answered this Question to the best of my understanding.
On the other points which the noble Lord raised for instance, the question of numbers in regard to the Soviet Union—there has since September 1971 been a limitation of numbers. In regard to the rest of Eastern Europe, or other countries for that matter, there is strict visa control. I assure your Lordships that the position is kept very closely and carefully under review. Regarding the position arising from the opening of an Embassy in Eire, while the Republic is an independent country, I can assure the House that all considerations relevant to that position will naturally be borne in mind by Her Majesty's Government. We are in very good relationship with our friends in Eire, and I have no doubt the 866 present co-operation in these matters will continue. The noble Lord raised one other point, I think. Perhaps we might have a chat about it after Questions.
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, could the noble Lord say what is a "satellite country", and what is the present international astronomical computation of our own ranking among the ethereal bodies?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the definition of satellite status must vary from time to time according to the status of that country. As to our own status, I would say it was preeminent in many fields in the world.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, could the Minister say whether the members of these accredited missions enjoy diplomatic immunity, or not?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSNo, my Lords.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it is correct that Members from both Houses of Parliament are able to join in a form of association, through committees and councils set up in these various countries through the I.P.U.? In view of the existence of bodies working within Parliament, including representation by Members of this House and also the other place, it is rather surprising to see this Question on the Order Paper.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, certainly associations of the kind the noble Lord mentions, especially through the I.P.U., offer very useful opportunities for exchange of information of a legitimate kind and for influencing the views of other countries about conditions and prospects of our own.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is not the Question put down by Lord Barnby based on the balance of trade between Russia and ourselves? Should we not take the same attitude to the Common Market, where we are £100 to £200 million "in the red"?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think that question is addressed partly to the noble Lord who asked the original Question and partly to myself, and at the moment I would need to deal with that part of it which is addressed to me under advice.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, while appreciating the generous offer of the Minister to give supplementary information, of which I shall take advantage, may I ask him at this stage whether I was correct in understanding that the number of all bodies under the direction of the Soviet Embassy in this country, plus those of any of the countries that might be considered as satellite countries, is of the order of forty only?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords, the number of organisations—and they are not accredited to Embassies—which the Soviet Union and Eastern European countries associated with it have in this country is forty. The number that this country has in those countries is twenty-one.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, when action was taken previously to request the retirement of some 105 bodies associated with the Soviet Embassy, were they concerned only with the Embassy, or were they also other bodies which the noble Lord has mentioned as not part of but under the direction of the Soviet Embassy?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it reflected the totality of the position, accredited and otherwise.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD)My Lords, I would suggest that we have pursued this Question a fair way, and in view of the fact that my noble friend has undertaken to have a chat with the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, perhaps we could leave it there. If the noble Lord then wishes to return to the Question—I hope he does not—he may do so.