§ 2.43 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps, including international steps, they have taken in respect of hijacking and terrorism, and what future steps they propose to take.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH)My Lords, intensive security measures have been taken ever since international terrorism began to threaten British interests. The measures cover a wide range, and many of them depend for their effectiveness on not being made public. Her Majesty's Government have always taken a leading role in international co-operation to counter terrorism, including the preparation of international conventions, and we shall continue to do so.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, does the noble Lord realise that the situation is extremely serious and urgent, particularly in view of the fact, for example, that only a little time ago in Greece two terrorists who had been accused, charged and convicted of murder, and sentenced, were actually released under pressure of threat? Is this not a matter of considerable international importance? As a civilised nation of the world, should we not get together with other civilised nations to see that sanctions are imposed on those countries which harbour and train these criminals? Would the noble Lord also say in what circumstances we allowed two people who were carrying arms to disembark from an aeroplane into this country? Why did we let them go despite our law which says they must not carry these arms but are liable to imprisonment or a fine if they do?
§ LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICHMy Lords, on the latter point. I understand there was no reason to believe that the two men to whom my noble friend referred were potential hijackers or terrorists. On the broader question, I think there is no disagreement with him here. We are fully aware of the grave dangers involved in the growth of international 733 terrorism of the character my noble friend has described. This is one of the reasons why the Government will soon be coming forward with proposals, which have already been announced in another place by my right honourable friend, to deal with the particular problem of policing of Heathrow.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, is it not desirable that there should be further consultations between the international pilots' association, who are so intimately concerned, and Governments to try to find a way to deal with this problem?
§ LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICHMy Lords, yes; there is great truth in what the noble Lord has said. It is only fair to say that, during the lifetime of the previous Administration, the United Kingdom delegation to the Extraordinary Assembly of the International Civil Aviation Organisation last year tried to some degree to move in the direction of more satisfactory arrangements. Unhappily, however, despite the efforts of the British delegation, progress was not possible on that occasion.
§ EARL COWLEYMy Lords, will the present Government advocate the proposed Amendment of the Conservative Government to the Chicago Convention of 1944 which was discussed at the last meeting of the International Civil Aviation Organisation?
§ LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICHMy Lords, I think I require notice of that question. I do not think there is any particular disagreement between either side of the House on this particular point.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, at what point do the Government decide whether, when people bring arms into this country which are found in their suitcases, those people are terrorists or are harmless tourists?
§ LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICHMy Lords, my noble friend Lady Gaitskell can be reassured that this is not a matter for the Government, but one for the police and, through the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Attorney General.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the only real way of counteracting hijacking is in fact by international agreement? Would he 734 further agree that while there exist various Conventions which would substantially reduce the possibilities of hijacking, the real trouble is to get other countries to be parties to those Conventions? If that is so, will he give some assurance that he will endeavour to persuade these countries to become members?
§ LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICHMy Lords, on that particular point, the Government have ratified two of the principal Conventions, the Hague Convention on Hijacking and the Montreal Convention on Sabotage.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, while this terrorism is continuing against civilised nations, is it not time we took a lead by asking the civilised nations to come together to do what they can about it, and also to exclude those nations which harbour terrorists and which allow them to be trained? Is this not an extremely serious matter at the present moment? May it not develop into a reign of terrorism throughout the world?
§ LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICHMy Lords, I think the present Government and their predecessors have great sympathy with what the noble Lord, Lord Janner, has said. But I repeat that this matter was raised by the United Kingdom delegation to the I.C.A.O. special assembly last year. Unhappily, we were unable to make any progress on that occasion, but we will certainly continue to do what we can to bring others into line with our views.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, is the noble Lord in a position to say how many countries were parties to those Conventions to which he has just referred, and how many have also ratified them?
§ LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICHMy Lords, on the two Conventions I alluded to earlier, 68 and 51 respectively.
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, is it fair to say that this is a matter for the police, who are already overburdened and are called upon to bear almost incredibly difficult responsibilities, who normally refer such matters to the advice of the Director of Public Prosecutions, in connection with whom the Home Office have a dirigeant authority?
§ LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICHMy Lords, I hope I was not unfair to anyone when answering the Question. I was simply stating the facts.
LORD HAWKEMy Lords, does the noble Lord know whether any progress has been made in the devising of a gas, harmless but soporific, which could be released in the cabin of an aircraft when a hijacking started?
§ LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICHMy Lords, this is exactly one of the points of difficulty about going into too much detail on any precise measures which could be taken at any time to deal with this particular problem. On the specific question that the noble Lord mentioned I will see whether I can write to him and give him some information.