§ 2.45 p.m.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government to state the number of children suspended from school at comparable dates in February 1971–74; and to state the nature of offences for which they are suspended.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, this information has not hitherto been collected.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that he has given the Answer which I expected? (Laughter.) Now that this matter has been brought to his attention, will he ask the Secretary of State to have a look at it? Many people whose lifetime has been 366 engaged in education feel that there are hundreds of children a day suspended from school on serious offences. Those children might in the future create a higher density of delinquents and criminals. No study is being undertaken nationally into this problem; locally it might have been dealt with. Is my noble friend further aware that people in educational administration are alarmed at events in America, where, I am told, the police patrol regularly in many schools? Parliament should give more attention to this subject, with a view to after-care and in helping to prevent the creation of future delinquents and criminals.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, first, with regard to the laughter that broke out when my noble friend asked his supplementary question, the dates to which my noble friend's Question referred are dates that concerned the previous Administration and not the present one. On the comments my noble friend has made, I am sure that what he has had to say will be studied with considerable interest. Perhaps the House would appreciate my saying that the responsibility for suspensions from school rests, as it properly ought to do, with the headmasters, headmistresses and boards of governors of schools. I would not wish it to be thought for one moment that there was no interest in this and allied aspects of the problem. Some survey work was undertaken by the Association of Education Committees at the request of the Department of Education and Science. This is not a simple matter. Her Majesty's Government will continue to take a very considerable interest in it and if it is possible to come up with ideas that will ease the concern that exists, I am sure they will do so.
§ LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this matter has nothing whatever to do with Party politics? The Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell, was a simple request for information, and that has not been forthcoming. Does not the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, agree that, on reflection, his Answer was hopelessly complacent?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I would most emphatically disagree with the noble and learned Lord. Far from 367 being complacent, I endeavoured to indicate that the Government had considerable interest in this matter. Regarding Party politics, I cannot understand what point the noble and learned Lord was trying to make. I was referring to some laughter that broke out and I thought the House ought to be reminded of the dates to which reference had been made in the Question.
§ LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, if the noble Lord is in serious doubt as to what I meant, will he bear in mind that I was alluding to his reference to the previous Administration? This matter has nothing to do with Party politics. Will the noble Lord bear in mind that if he wants to keep it out of Party politics (as I hope he will) he will in future refrain from observations of that kind?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I think I was entitled to make reference to the laughter which broke out, and I certainly do not accept from the noble and learned Lord the correction; it is as unwarranted as it is uncalled for.
§ BARONESS BACONMy Lords, can my noble friend define the legal position about suspension or exclusion from school? Is he aware—I am sure he is—that it is an offence for parents not to send their children to school, and if they fail to do so they can be prosecuted? How can this fact be reconciled with a headmaster or governors having power to exclude from school?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I believe my noble friend is well aware of the situation. The Question before the House deals with suspension, and the reply I gave certainly was intended to cover that point.
§ LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURYMy Lords, will the noble Lord say whether the Department concerned has made any attempt to obtain the information requested by his noble friend? Secondly, are figures available for the period 1964–70? May I further suggest to the noble Lord that, listening to his reply, it sounded as if he gave his noble friend the "brush off"?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, my noble friend is the best one to judge 368 whether I was giving him the "brush off". I gave factual information for which the Question asked. If noble Lords will inquire in the localities where they live, they will appreciate that this is a matter where the practice of local authorities varies quite considerably. It was quite impracticable to attempt to gather the information in the time between when this Question was tabled and to-day.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I am sorry if we have enveloped ourselves in Party politics on this issue? It was not my desire. My Question genuinely sought information on this tremendous problem that many people in the educational field regard as serious. I am not referring to children who play truant or commit minor offences. A headmaster has certain responsibilities for the more serious offences. I am concerned about the after-care treatment that is being considered with a view to preventing further development on unsatisfactory lines which affect society and which we know so well. It is that point which I thank my noble friend for answering and for adding that the Government will give further consideration to the matter with a view to trying to establish the size of this problem.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, would not my noble friend the Minister accept that, if serious offences are charged against children of school age, there exists other machinery for dealing with them through the juvenile courts? Will he not also accept that it is undesirable to try to train children to act in the way they should by suspending their education, and that this is a penalty that ought to be carefully watched?
§ LORD MAELORMy Lords, is the Minister aware that this Question does not arise so far as children and schools of Wales are concerned? I had occasion only last week to call at my local school because I wanted to see the headmaster. Not hearing a sound coming from any part of the large building, I returned home, and later I learned to my dismay that the children were at school when I called.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I am sure the House will much appreciate what my noble friend has said in regard 369 to Wales. We wish that the same position applied throughout the entire United Kingdom. As to what my noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger had to say, I will certainly draw my right honourable friend's attention to it. This is not a simple matter. The problems go far beyond school control. Issues of home and other influences are involved. I am satisfied myself that my right honourable friend will do his utmost, so far as he is able, to secure improvement in this situation.