§ 3.9 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF SHANNONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the report that Leeds University is to spend £67,500 on a study of the Nottinghamshire meals-on-wheels service is correct; and, if so, how much of this money comes from public funds.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, if the financial resources are forthcoming, the Catering Research Unit of the Department of Food and Leather Science at Leeds University intends to undertake this research. So far, Nottinghamshire County Council has agreed to provide one-third of the estimated cost.
§ THE EARL OF SHANNONMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. May I ask him whether Her Majesty's Government consider that expenditure of this nature is justified at this moment?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, the universities are free to determine for themselves how they expend their funds. So far as the Government's position is concerned, no formal request for support has been made up to this moment. Therefore, at this moment there is no question of Government expenditure.
§ THE EARL OF SHANNONMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that further reply, am I to understand that no public money is involved?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, there is a point at which we must recognise that local authorities are free agents and ought to be so, because if this is a field in which they believe research can be usefully undertaken it can be of advantage not only to Nottinghamshire but to other local authorities as well.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I think the Minister said that two-thirds of the cost would be paid if the money was available. May I ask from where it might be available?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I stated that one-third was being provided by Nottinghamshire County Council. As to where the other two-thirds may come from, I am in no position to give any information on that to-day.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is the noble Lord saying that he does not know whether two-thirds will come from the Government?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I am saying precisely nothing.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, if the Government have received no formal request for funds, may I ask whether there has been any informal inquiry about the possibility of Government funds?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, it would be surprising if I said that I was aware of any informal request. I have stated that no formal request has been made and that is the position.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEThen, my Lords, I take it that an informal request has been made?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYPersonally, my Lords, I would take nothing for granted.
§ BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGEMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to keep in mind that the concept of independent autonomous universities is very important? Governments and Ministers come and go and there are various changes all over the world, but we must not expect that the decisions made by independent autonomous universities will always meet with our 100 per cent. support. However, is it not important that we should keep this independent structure in our country?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for what she has just said. I had hoped that I made the position quite clear, but I am grateful that she has dealt with the matter rather more fully than I did.
§ LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, while accepting that a decision by the University on what to do with its own funds is entirely independent, may I suggest that should the noble Lord be in a position at some stage to say something to the House about the special use of Government funds for this purpose, surely that is a matter about which the Government would be responsible to Parliament.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I had hoped that I had made it quite clear that at this time no special Government funds had been allocated for this purpose.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, can my noble friend say what part of this amount is to be expended on the cost of the meals?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I cannot answer that question without notice. I should think that a very great deal of time and expense might be unnecessarily involved in attempting to answer that question at this point of time.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of us believe that it may have been wiser, before we started to knock this project, to see with what depth the University intended to look into the problem; because there are biological, health, digestive and other problems connected with the whole distribution of these meals.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I think that we ought not to underestimate the possible and, indeed, probable value of such an undertaking as is here proposed; that is, without any commitment at all in regard to financial support.