§ 3.58 p.m.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I wonder whether I might first repeat the Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade. The Statement is as follows:
"I would like to make a Statement about the Government's initial views on the recommendations in the 5th Report of the Expenditure Committee on the wages and conditions of African workers employed by British firms in South Africa.
"This was a somewhat unusual field of inquiry for a Select Committee. The whole House will wish to congratulate my honourable friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees and his colleagues on the Trade and Industry Sub-Committee on the thoroughness of this inquiry and the admirable Report which they have produced.
"We accept the main recommendation that the Government should issue amplified guidance to British firms on the wages and working conditions of African workers. The Report contains 133 an admirably full and clear statement of recommended practices which, if implemented conscientiously, could lead to very real improvements.
"As recommended by the Committee I am now arranging to give the Code of Practice wide publicity. I shall write personally to those British firms with South African interests. My letter and the text will be issued to the Press, as will the list of those to whom I am writing. Naturally we also accept that the guidelines should be updated when necessary.
"Key recommendations in the guidelines are that no British firm in South Africa should pay adult male African employees wages below the appropriate Poverty Datum Level, and that all firms should aim within a set timetable to pay minimum wages equal to the Minimum Earnings Level broadly equivalent to the Poverty Datum Level plus 50 per cent. Elsewhere the Report rightly stresses the responsibility of parent firms for the employment practices of South African affiliates. These are the basic lessons of inquiry and it is now for industry to put them into practice.
"The Report contained a number of other recommendations on informing and advising firms on overseas industrial relations and on monitoring their performance. These proposals are being given urgent and careful study by the Departments concerned as well as consultation with both sides in industry. I shall inform the House of the outcome in due course."
§ 4.1 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF LIMERICKMy Lords, I should like first to thank the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, for repeating this Statement and for drawing our attention to what is indeed a very interesting Report of the Trade and Industry Sub-Committee. To my mind the important thing is that this inquiry took place at all, and, arising from that fact, that there has been—and we can anticipate in future that there will continue to be—much greater publicity concerning the activities of companies investing in Southern Africa. Publicity, I sincerely hope, will extend equally to the good and constructive practices, as to the malpractices. As an example of the good 134 practices, I just instance the TEACH (Teach an African Child) programme, sponsored by the Star newspaper of Johannesburg, to which a dozen or so British companies in South Africa, including Spicers of the Wiggins Teape group, Associated British Foods, Barclay's Bank and Standard Bank, have made not insubstantial contributions.
It is common ground between the parties that good practices should be established and maintained. Soon after the original publicity last year arising from The Guardian articles, my right honourable friend the then Prime Minister, wrote to Mr. James Callaghan that British companies in South Africa should recognise their own interests in establishing the name of good employers, in particular in keeping abreast of the best current practice in respect of pay and conditions of employment and opportunities for advancement. There are practices in South Africa that few, if any, in this House would defend but I think that the fact that relations between our countries are consequently not more strained than they are is substantially due to the regular, ongoing traffic of trade, of industry and of commerce.
We should not forget that our normal, everyday trade with South Africa is of considerable importance to us, and that the British companies investing in South Africa are not only significantly promoting this vital trade but are providing a good proportion of the employment opportunities not merely in South Africa but also for Africans from neighbouring territories who have few alternative jobs to look to. Therefore the remedy must be not to reduce, still less to prevent, investment in South Africa, but rather to improve practices on the lines recommended in this Report. The best British practice, I think it is recognised, leads the field in South Africa and this publicity must have a major effect in raising what may still, regrettably, be less good.
My Lords, I do not wish to refer in detail to the Report or to the guidelines, but would like to ask just one question. It concerns the role in future of the Department for which the noble Lord speaks. It is proposed that this should be more activist. Without disagreeing with that, I wonder whether he can tell us a little more about what is in mind. There is a difficulty, which I am sure 135 he will be the first to recognise, that his Department will itself have no detailed knowledge of what is going on, no powers except of persuasion, and must rely on information, as indeed is made clear in the Report, voluntarily revealed. If he is able to tell us a little about how they will approach this task, I think it would be welcome.
§ LORD WADEMy Lords, on behalf of my Liberal colleagues I should like to join in thanking the noble Lord for repeating this Statement. The Select Committee is certainly to be congratulated on its work, and I think that it is clear that those who criticise apartheid and other practices in South Africa would feel in a stronger position if it were known that British firms operating in that country paid at least the minimum wages as defined in this Statement. There is just one other question I should like to ask. The noble Lord referred to the code of practice and I understand that the Government accept that the guidelines should be updated when necessary. Whose responsibility is it to update the guidelines?
§ LORD BESWICKI am grateful for what has been said by the two noble Lords opposite. Of course, I recognise that there are good practices in South Africa by British firms and it is as well to recognise that. The noble Earl asked only one question and that was about what I did not say and not about what I said. I would call his attention to the fact that the further urgent consideration that is being given is on precisely the point which he raised; namely, the monitoring of these matters. On this point, I shall make a Statement, or the Government will make a Statement, as soon as possible. The noble Lord, Lord Wade, asked me about the responsibility for updating. Here again it is possibly something about which we shall learn a little by practice. Clearly the Department must take a responsibility here and a lead, but there are consultations going on. There appears to be goodwill. The Report pays tribute to the voluntary way in which firms are going forward and are giving information. I am sure that between us we can solve the point that the noble Earl put.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLI have listened carefully to my noble friend, and 136 I think I heard him say, when he was giving these guidelines, that they only concerned men workers. Does this mean that no advice, no guidelines are to be given with regard to the exploitation of women which is even greater than that of men workers in South Africa?
§ LORD BESWICKNo. My noble friend raised a point. I think she is absolutely right. I did say "adult male African employees."
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLYes.
§ LORD BESWICKI am not certain that this is meant to imply that women can be paid below the poverty datum line. I assumed that it meant that the emphasis was on the adult and not on the male, but I will certainly look into that point and let her know.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLI feel very strongly about this because the exploitation of women is outrageous. Can he tell me whether there was a woman on this Committee which examined this matter? How was it possible to forget 50 per cent. of the population?
§ LORD BESWICKIt was, of course, the Select Committee of another place. Whether there were any women Members of Parliament on that Committee I am unable to say, but again I will have a look at the list and let her know.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLThank you.
§ LORD BARNBYThe Statement which the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, has just made will be read with approval almost everywhere. Much good has obviously come out of the Parliamentary investigation which was established in South Africa. However, since this is believed to be a precedent for such kinds of action in the internal affairs of any foreign country, is it intended that this investigation should be duplicated in any other countries where the need might well be as great, whether it be in Africa or whether it be in Asia? For instance, wages in India are in many cases very low and the country itself is the subject of a reprehensible caste system which everybody should regard with the greatest disapproval. Therefore, India might well be the subject of such a comparable investigation.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, with respect to the noble Lord—and I have no difficulty in mustering respect for him—I should like to say that this is not an interference in the affairs of another Government. One might say that it is an intervention in the affairs of British firms operating abroad and it is hoped that British firms operating abroad—no matter where they operate, whether in Africa, in South-West Africa or elsewhere—will have regard to the guidance which is being sent out.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is possible to extend the sending of this information, to which he has referred, not only to British firms operating in South Africa but also to British firms operating in Namibia? Alternatively, could there be another Select Committee, possibly even of this House, which would look into matters connected with British firms in Namibia?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I think the problem in Namibia is less difficult than that in South Africa, in so far as the number of British firms in Namibia is small. I believe there are only about ten or twelve altogether. They happen also to be firms which are operating in South Africa, and the guidance which will be issued to these firms will also suggest that the same conditions should be applied to South-West Africa as to South Africa.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, what criteria would be used to decide in which areas British firms might properly be examined?
§ LORD BESWICKI am sorry, my Lords, but I do not quite follow the point raised by the noble Lord. The geographical area is South Africa, but I was making the point that many of these firms which operate in South Africa also operate in Namibia, and they will be expected to apply the same criteria there.
§ LORD BARNBYAnd in India, my Lords?
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I apologise to the Minister and to the House for the fact that I did not hear the Statement. As your Lordships know, I am conservative-minded and was therefore thinking of the announcement rather than watching the indicator. But since I have been able to learn what the Minister 138 said, may I first congratulate Her Majesty's Government on their decision to inform British companies about the suggested code of payment Also, may I urge upon the Government that that is not enough. There is great hope in the leadership of many British companies in South Africa. Mr. Oppenheimer, a very important industrialist, has been a supporter of the Progressive Party, which, surprisingly, has won victories in the recent election. Therefore, Her Majesty's Government will find co-operation on the part of many British industrialists in South Africa in seeking to apply better policies there. I should like to urge Her Majesty's Government not to be satisfied merely by asking that a code of payment should be followed. They should also ask that apartheid practices should not be followed in British industries in South Africa. My noble friend Lady Summerskill raised the matter of women's wages. As she will be aware, the problem of women's wages is not so extensive in South Africa as it is in industrialised countries of the West. But she is correct in pressing this matter because on many of the Afrikaaner farms the conditions of the women workers are worse than those of slavery.
Finally, may I ask the Minister whether he will listen to the plea which has been made by my noble friend Lord Walston. I have said earlier in this House that this code should be sent to the British companies in Namibia, as well as to those in the Republic itself. The Minister has replied that many of the companies in Namibia are also in the Republic and will therefore, in any case receive this publication. That is not entirely true. There are British companies in Namibia to-day which have no association with companies in the Republic, but which are very influential as multi-national companies and are paying to their workers in Namibia wages far lower than even the disgraceful wages which are now being paid in the Republic of South Africa. I strongly urge Her Majesty's Government, perhaps through the United Nations—since Namibia has been declared independent by the United Nations—to raise this issue of the scandalous exploitation of African workers, men and women, in Namibia by many companies which include those of British registration.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I wonder whether I ought to call attention to the 139 Companion to the Standing Orders, which suggests that Ministerial Statements should not be made the occasion for an immediate debate.
§ LORD BESWICKHaving said that, my Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend and say that I have really answered his point about South-West Africa. But if there are firms which are not covered by the guidance which will be given to the companies operating in South Africa, I see no reason why that guidance should not go to those operating in Namibia if they can be identified, and I will write to him about that point.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I do not want to press the noble Lord now, but I should be very much obliged if lie would also write to me. As he has mentioned Namibia and other countries, can he tell me whether the women tea pickers of India—because he will be looking into the question of women workers—will be covered? Are there firms in South Africa which would be involved in growing tea in India?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I think my noble friend is taking the question rather widely, but there is an affiliation between South-West Africa and South Africa. I have also said, this process having been started, attention having been called and publicity having been given to conditions operating in other parts of the world in firms which are British-owned, that there will be a spread of influence and improvements will be made. However, I cannot say that it is proposed to deal directly with British firms in India. That is a separate issue, although I certainly agree with my noble friend that something must be done about it.