§ 2.49 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will stop the supply of aid and arms to Chile.
512§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS)My Lords, the Government's policy towards Chile is under review. My right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary and my right honourable friend the Minister for Overseas Development hope shortly to be in a position to make Government policy clear.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I first welcome my noble friend to this House? It must be almost unique that a Lord should be introduced and as a Minister answer the first Question on the same day. May I ask my noble friend whether Her Majesty's Government would bear in mind the very deep feeling in the Labour movement regarding the supply of aid and arms to this Fascist country? And can he indicate when the Government will be making a Statement on this matter?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, may I thank my noble friend for his kind expressions, and your Lordships' House for the patient and understanding way in which you have received me on what is in some ways a unique occasion. In reply to my noble friend's supplementary question I can assure him that the considerations he has mentioned, with others, will be completely borne in mind by Her Majesty's Government when they come to make a statement of policy towards Chile.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he feels that there is any foundation for his noble friend's statement that this Government is Fascist? Can he also give us an assurance that it will not be the policy of Her Majesty's Government to supply arms only to countries which are Socialist or Communist?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I would advise the noble Lord, and indeed your Lordships generally, to await the full exposition of the policy of the Government as it will be put forward by my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary.
§ EARL COWLEYMy Lords, may I first congratulate the noble Lord on his elevation to the Peerage and his appointment to the Government Front Bench? 513 May I ask him what factors have influenced the Government in coming to their decision, when one considers his noble friend's statements while in Opposition ever since September 11? And, have the Government and the Labour Party finally learnt about the dangers and folly of using aid as a political weapon?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I must ask the noble Lord and others to await the statement to which I referred in my previous answer.
§ LORD PEDDIEMy Lords, is my noble friend able to indicate the total value of the arms and equipment sent to Chile?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy My Lords, all the facts and figures will be in the statement to which I have referred.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, while congratulating the noble Lord on his unique experience, may I ask him whether, when considering this matter, the point uppermost in his mind will be that aid should be given for development purposes? Or will Her Majesty's Government consider that aid should be put on or taken off for political reasons? Which will it be?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am quite sure that the statement to which I referred will fully satisfy the noble Baroness.
§ EARL COWLEYMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that in fact it is technical assistance which is being given to Chile? Can he say what that money is being used for?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, not in anticipation of the statement; and in any case I would suggest that that is quite another question.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend able to distinguish between the sending of arms to Chile, where there has been a change of Government, and the sending of arms to Saudi Arabia, which country has raised the price of oil after refusing to allow oil to flow to this country, an action that has reflected most adversely on the balance of payments?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSFascinating as that intervention is, my Lords, 514 I would suggest that it, too, is quite another question.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, when the noble Lord comes to review the policy of supplying arms, will he make any differentiation between dictatorships of the Right and those of the Left? Secondly, may I also commiserate with the noble Lord on his first day on the Front Bench? He seems to be having a certain amount of "stick".
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am glad of support of any kind on an occasion like this. As to the first part of the noble Earl's question, I am sure that my right honourable friend will take full note of what he has said.
VISCOUNT MONCKMy Lords, may I also add my warmest congratulations to the noble Lord and, having done so, ask him whether he is aware that if my old friend the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, continues at his present rate of two Starred Questions per week on this particular matter, it will take him approximately 87 weeks to cover every country in the world?
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that many of us think he is very wise to ensure that full consideration is given to this matter before an official statement is made? Is he further aware that there is a great danger involved in announcing policies "at a stroke"?
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, while congratulating the noble Lord on his elevation to the Peerage and his appointment as a Minister of State, may I ask him whether, in giving consideration to their policy relating to the supply of arms and equipment to countries such as Chile, Her Majesty's Government will bear in mind actions such as were taken regarding Greece, which resulted in the cancellation of orders to the extent of £60 million, which could be detrimental to the shipbuilding industry? May I also ask whether that fact might be taken into account in considering the question of aid to be given to Chile, which could result in a breach of contract, and so on?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, while not necessarily agreeing with everything that the noble Lord has said, I can assure him that that kind 515 of consideration will be borne in mind when the statement of policy is prepared and put forward.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, without commenting at all on the merits of this matter I would ask the noble Lord to take note that we on these Benches think he is doing very well indeed.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while not wishing to detain the Minister further, may I ask him whether he is aware that I am very grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Monck, for the encouragement which he has given me this afternoon? May I also ask whether the Government will bear in mind that the Government of Chile, before the Allende Administration, owed £635 million and that Britain is the largest creditor in that respect? When the noble Lord is thinking of aid, will he bear that point in mind?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for what he has just said. Of course considerations of that sort loom large in any assessment of policy. I should like to check the figures he has given me, but I have no reason to suppose that they are incorrect.
§ LORD GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, may I take a few moments more of the time of the House, first to congratulate the noble Lord, to whom I have had in my time the great privilege of giving official advice? While I do not want to call anybody by name in this controversy, or to ask the noble Lord to say anything that he would not wish, may I express the hope that the Government will bear in mind that we must keep our national "cool" about the situation in Chile? May I further say that there is great dispute about the merits on both sides, to which I will not refer, and that this is perhaps a situation where, more than ever before, the people of Chile may be in need of help for their welfare?