HL Deb 26 June 1974 vol 352 cc1473-5

3.3 p.m.

LORD TEVIOT

My Lords. I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follow:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the security arrangements of the Public Search Room and offices of the Offices of the Population. Census and Surveys or the Registrar General of Births, Marriages and Deaths at St. Catherines' House.

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, in the present circumstances Her Majesty's Government can never be entirely satisfied with the security arrangements in any Government office and therefore the needs of each must be continuously reviewed. There must always be a compromise between security and operational needs and the resources available to meet them.

Any member of the public has a statutory right to enter the Search Room at St. Catherines' House in order to consult the indexes housed there and to obtain certified copies of records. It is, therefore, not possible to operate there the normal security arrangements of passes or the authentication of visitors' credentials. That is not to say, however, that there are no security measures at all; the steps taken are unobtrusive, but for obvious reasons I do not wish to elaborate on them here. I am sure that your Lordships will not wish me to do so. In so far as the offices are concerned, a full pass system is in force and all visitors are escorted to and from the officers they need to see.

LORD TEVIOT

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, which I regret, with respect, was entirely unsatisfactory, may I submit that there is no security whatsoever in this office? Is he aware that it is usual in most Government offices, at least in practically all those which I have visited, for the belongings of visitors to be inspected. That is not done at the Search Room. The office opens straight on to the street. It is easy for people to come in, and with the best will in the world, at the time when messengers are most busy it is easy for people to place packages behind books. Also, cars can be left outside this office. They are not inspected; they are left there and no one tries to remove them.

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, with very great respect, the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, is not accurate when he says there are no security measures at all. I have said quite clearly there are security measures, but I do not want the House to press me to indicate what they are. With regard to the depositing of bags, brief cases and parcels, this practice is sometimes used elsewhere in order to reduce the risk of valuable books or other articles being searched or removed from the premises. The noble Lord knows this Search Room very well, and it would be of no value to do that in this particular case. Furthermore, the structure of the Room and its environs at St. Catherine's House is such that it would provide no security against the effect of any incendiary or explosive device if one were deposited in the Search Room. It is not possible for people to take away the large volumes in the Search Room. To have bags deposited elsewhere would not alter the situation.

LORD TEVIOT

My Lords, with respect, is the noble Lord aware that security arrangements, if they exist, are so unobtrusive that they are not visible to regular searchers like myself, and to the staff. I was not asking about having articles deposited, but I should like them examined. If one goes into the Law Courts or to the Public Record Office, or any other public office one can think of, these things are examined and therefore one has some confidence. Security men look into these things, and with the best will in the world, messengers are not employed to be security guards.

LORD WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I will take note of what the noble Lord has said, but I would remind him that searching bags and handbags does not necessarily guarantee against any device of an explosive nature being taken in. It would involve the searching of individuals, which raises the great problem of personal and private liberty which we have been discussing recently.

LORD TEVIOT

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am conscious that the liberty of searching the individual concerned is unnecessary, but it does help if you just look inside his bag. It brings confidence to those searching and to the staff concerned.