§ LORD THOMASMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that sufficient energy and urgency are being displayed in the applications for route permissions for a British-operated Concorde; and how many airports on British Commonwealth air routes have been cleared for commercial operations by Concorde.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY (LORD BESWICK)My Lords, the Departments concerned are in discussion with the relevant countries. We are making progress, but it is not desirable to specify details of these discussions while negotiations are proceeding.
§ LORD THOMASMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that Answer, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that whereas the French-built Concorde is shuttling across the Atlantic with great speed and regularity, we do not seem to be doing so much with our British-built Concorde? May I further ask him whether notice is being taken of that and action is being formed accordingly?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, in the first place, there is no such thing as the French-built Concorde or the British-built Concorde: they are all Anglo-French machines built jointly, but assembled in the different countries. Of course, one has noted the achievements of those aircraft, including the most remarkable time-keeping achievements, and I am 1130 sure that these will be taken into account by the various countries with whom we are now in discussion.
§ LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his reply is not at all satisfactory? He is well versed in these matters and, as my noble friend says, the initiative appears to have gone towards the French on these matters. May I ask the noble Lord whether he would agree that it is about time the British Government (whatever their complexion) were more forthright in this matter, because it affects tens of thousands of British workers not to mention British engineering and prestige?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, may I tell the noble Lord, whose knowledge of these matters is also considerable, that I am surprised at his disappointing question. There is no question here of our being behindhand: it is simply that negotiations are taking place. The measurements of the production aircraft as regards noise and emission have not been completed so far as certain of these countries are concerned; and these matters are now considered. I assure the noble Lord that on this aspect of the matter there is no question of the French being in front of us.
§ LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord when either House of Parliament can debate this matter, since a massive amount of British taxpayers' money is involved? Is it not about time that we discussed these matters?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I should be happy to debate this matter this afternoon or to-morrow morning; but it makes no difference to the fact that one needs quite detailed technical negotiations with the various authorities. These negotiations are taking place, and it is not right to say that delay lies with the British side of the discussions.
§ LORD THOMASMy Lords, will the noble Lord at least admit that the Concorde which has done this large amount of flying was assembled in France, flies from a French airport in Paris and is flown by French crews?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, if it helps the noble Lord. But there is no question of "admitting". I am not quite sure 1131 what he is getting at. Of course, they have been flown in certain cases by French crews, and in certain cases by British crews. But that is not because of any reluctance on the part of the British authorities here.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, although there has been a considerable amount of criticism ventilated in regard to Concorde, will my noble friend agree that it has received support from certain sectors of the aircraft industry? Will he also agree that, as regards noise and emission, it has become more pronounced in recent months and, indeed, has never been more pronounced than it is at this moment?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, if my noble friend is saying that the nearer we get to success here the more angry and petulant some people get about it, then I agree with him.
§ THE EARL OF KINNOULLMy Lords, is the noble Lord able to say whether the French are having parallel independent negotiations with other countries, or whether the negotiations are joint ones? Secondly, may I ask the noble Lord whether he can bring us up to date as to the decision on Concorde vis-à-via the American airports?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, so far as the recommendations and discussions with the Americans are concerned, this has been a joint Anglo-French operation. In all the discussions so far there have been representatives of the British and of the French. The situation is that they require measurements to be taken of production aircraft. These measurements are being taken and presentation is being made to the New York airport authorities. I am sure the noble Earl will know that, so far as the United States is concerned, the matter is a little more complicated in so far as one has to satisfy both the Federal authorities and the separate New York airport authorities.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, will my noble friend agree that this noteworthy performance by Concorde should be acclaimed equally by both countries involved, and that no attempt should be made to claim credit for one particular country in the matter?
§ LORD BESWICKI absolutely agree, my Lords. There really could not have been any effort in history in which both France and Britain have worked together more productively than this one. What my noble friend said is absolutely right. May I make it absolutely clear that when I talked about criticism of the aircraft which has existed in the past and which seems to be getting a little more strident now, I was not referring to the two noble Lords who sit opposite.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, my noble friend mentioned noise. Can he give us any information which will indicate that the problem of excessive noise is being overcome?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the production aircraft is both quieter and cleaner than the prototype aircraft. It is now no more noisy than current aircraft types already operating.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, as discussions regarding possible routes are in progress, may we now take it that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to continue with the production of Concorde?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the House will appreciate the innocence of the noble Earl, while not expecting my innocence to equal his.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, the noble Lord said that the production aircraft is cleaner than the pre-production version. Can he say whether this applies not only to the emission of particulate matter but also to emissions of oxides of nitrogen?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, that is so in both cases. But in the latter case the discussions are of course much more complicated than simply saying whether the emissions are less. It is a matter of whether they are of a sufficiently restricted degree and, again, discussions about this are now taking place.