HL Deb 19 June 1974 vol 352 cc906-8

2.53 p.m.

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows

: To ask Her Majesty's Government why on MacBrayne's shipping services to the Isle of Mull the charges for a lorry are 12 times as great as for a car with caravan, when the amount of deck space used is identical.

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, services to Mull are operated by the Scottish Transport Group's subsidiary, Caledonian MacBrayne's Limited, on a commercial basis without Government subsidy and the level of charges is a matter for the Group. If the noble Viscount takes the matter up with the Group I think, however, he will find that he has very considerably overstated the difference.

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD

My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I tell him that I have overstated the case inasmuch as I have said that charges for a commercial lorry are twelve times as great as for a car and caravan? May I ask the Minister whether he will agree with me that, according to the information supplied by the purser on the ferry boat from Oban to Craignure, Isle of Mull, the charge across the sound of Mull from Fishnish to Lochaline for a car and a caravan taking up to 10 metres is £3.25, and for a lorry taking up the same area the price is £25.74? May I ask the Minister whether he will agree that, from the point of view of a farmer exporting livestock or importing fodder, this is really outrageous? Further, may I ask the Minister whether he will agree that it is wrong for tourists with caravans to be treated so much better than resident farmers, who, after all, are extremely important to the viability of the isles? The tourists may well bring all his food in with him, thus being of no help to the economy and, of course, he can be a blithering nuisance!

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, where subsidy is involved the Secretary of State can influence the level of charges. But the differences in charges between one class of traffic and another is a matter for the commercial judgement of the operator. There is no room for the Secretary of State to intervene.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is this not a situation where the Opposition believe in private enterprise, with no complaint made about their charges?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, it is not for me to interpret the thoughts or wishes of the Opposition.

LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, will the noble Lord admit that MacBraynes is not a private enterprise?

LORD HUGHES

No, my Lords. But very largely because of the operations of previous Administrations, its subsidiaries must so operate.

LORD DAVIES OF LEEK

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that while MacBraynes—and I have had the pleasure of travelling on their impedimenta—may not be private now, it was private once and we have reached the pitch where the Government "socialise" the losses and "privatise" the profits?

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he will agree that when MacBraynes was private the charges were far less? Further, may I ask him whether he will agree that though MacBraynes may not be directly subsidised on this particular ferry service, it is of course subsidised indirectly through Scottish public transport?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, if one goes far enough back in history, one finds that things were very much cheaper for almost anything.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether there is any reason why another shipping line should not set up in opposition, so that some competition might be introduced?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I have not known of any rush by private enterprise to divide the losses among themselves.

LORD TAYLOR OF GRYFE

My Lords, is the Minister aware that since the inception of the Group the commercial carryings of MacBraynes have increased in four years from 43,000 to 84,000?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I keep on collecting information!

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that for many long years everybody associated with Scottish transport has been well aware of the difficulties that confronted the MacBraynes firm, and that it was because they had the greatest difficulty in making a profit that eventually it became essential to rescue them from private enterprise, and the State had to take them over?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, my noble friend is perfectly correct.