HL Deb 18 June 1974 vol 352 cc802-29

2.56 p.m.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich I beg to move that the House do again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Garnsworthy.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]

LORD ABERDARE moved Amendment No. 12:

After Clause 14 insert the following new clause:

Reduction of minimum age for driving certain vehicles

"(1) In subsection (3) of section 4 of the 1972 Act (regulations may modify minimum ages for driving in certain defined cases) in paragraph (a) (power to increase age for driving certain articulated vehicles) after the word "that", in the first place where it occurs, there shall be inserted the words "except in the case of a person who fulfils the conditions specified for the purpose of paragraph (d) below" and at the end of paragraph (c) there shall be added the following paragraph:— (d) that, in the case of a person who fulfils such conditions as may be specified in the regulations with respect to his training and employment (including membership of a training scheme approved by the Secretary of State), the age under which he may not drive a vehicle falling within paragraph 4 of the Table set out in subsection (1) above, other than a road roller, shall, if the vehicle is of a class specified in the regulations, be 18 instead of 21.

(2) In section 114 of the 1972 Act (grant of heavy goods vehicle drivers' licences) in subsection (3) (issue of provisional licence subject to prescribed conditions) after the words "(2) above" there shall be inserted the words "or a full licence granted to an applicant who is under the age of 21 on the date of the application" and at the end of that subsection there shall be inserted the following subsection:— (4) It shall be an offence for a person to employ another person who is under the age of 21 to drive a heavy goods vehicle of any class in contravention of any prescribed conditions subject to which that other person's licence is issued.

(3) In section 115 of the 1972 Act (duration of heavy goods vehicle drivers' licences) after subsection (1) there shall be inserted the following subsection:— (1A) Without prejudice to subsection (1) above, if there come into existence, in relation to the holder of a heavy goods vehicle drivers' licence who is under the age of 21, such circumstances as may be prescribed relating to his conduct as a driver of a motor vehicle, the licensing authority of the area in which the licence was granted shall revoke the licence.

(4) Section 116 of the 1972 Act (disqualification on revocation of heavy goods vehicle

"114(4) Employing a person under 21 to "drive heavy goods vehicle in contravention of conditions of heavy goods vehicle driver's licence. Summarily. £100. — — Section 181 applies.""

The noble Lord said: On behalf of myself and my noble friends I beg to move Amendment No. 12. I am sure that the object of this new clause must be quite obvious to the noble Lord opposite and to the rest of the Committee because it puts back into the Bill a clause which was in the original Road Traffic Bill introduced by us when we were in Government. Perhaps it would be convenient if we discussed Amendments Nos. 12 and 13 together, because the principles underlying both clauses are the same. The first one deals with drivers of heavy goods vehicles and the second one deals with drivers of buses.

The first new clause, that is Amendment No. 12, would allow the Secretary of State to license persons under 21 to drive heavy goods vehicles, within the framework of a professional training scheme. We believe that such a training scheme is of the very greatest importance if, in the future, we are to be certain of getting enough drivers of heavy goods vehicles and, above all, if they are to be properly trained. I am sure that your

driver's licence) shall have effect subject to the following modifications:— (a) at the end of subsection (1) there shall be inserted the following subsection— (1A) Where in pursuance of section 115(1A) of this Act the licensing authority is required to revoke the heavy goods vehicle drivers' licence of a person under the age of 21, the authority shall order that person to be disqualified for holding or obtaining such a licence until he attains the age of 21", and (b) at the end of subsection (3) there shall be inserted the following subsection— (4) If, while the holder of a heavy goods vehicle driver's licence is disqualified under subsection (1A) above, the circumstances prescribed for the purposes of section 115(1A) of this Act cease to exist in his case, then, on an application made to the authority in that behalf, the licensing authority of the traffic area where he resides shall remove the disqualification, but so long as the disqualification continues in force a heavy goods vehicle driver's licence shall not be granted to him and any such licence obtained by him shall be of no effect".

(5) In Part I of Schedule 4 to the 1972 Act (prosecution and punishment of offences) after the entry relating to section 114(3) there shall be inserted the following entry:—

Lordships who take an interest in safety matters will agree that a professional training scheme of this sort is a very valuable asset. In fact, while we were in Government a detailed training scheme had already been worked out by both sides of the industry and I explained it in considerable detail during the Committee stage of the last Bill. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Champion, will remember, because he raised points on it and I did my best to satisfy him. I do not want to repeat the details of that scheme as that would merely weary your Lordships; but I would remind you that it allowed for a steady progression of young drivers from the age of 18, when they can start driving the lighter forms of heavy goods vehicles, until they reach the age of 21, when finally they can start training and get a licence to drive the Class I vehicles, the really heavy articulated lorries. But not until he is 21 would a person be qualified to drive a Class I vehicle, as indeed is the present position. But the details of that scheme are in Hansard of December 3 last, at columns 423 and 424.

The scheme had been discussed by us with both sides of the industry and both welcomed it. It certainly remains the view of the Freight Transport Association that to drop this scheme, which has been so painstakingly worked out in complete harmony between representatives of employers and trade unions, would be a disaster. The Road Haulage Association shares that view. When we discussed it at the Second Reading of the original Bill last year the noble Lord, Lord Champion, said this at column 833 on November 15: I ought to say here that the Transport and General Workers' Union, having looked at the first clause and the second one relating to bus drivers,… that is the second one that we are coming to, No. 13— … say … and here I am quoting what the noble Lord, Lord Champion, quoted, …'We accept this clause, in that this facilitates the operation of the agreed driver-apprentice scheme'.".

When the Bill had its Second Reading in another place—and that is the original Bill, again—on January 30 this year the present Minister of Transport, Mr. Fred Mulley, said this at column 472: We all welcome the reduction of the age for training drivers for heavy goods vehicles. So we have here a training scheme that has been agreed and indeed welcomed by both sides of industry. Moreover, we have a training scheme which was welcomed by Labour Party spokesmen in both Houses of Parliament when they were in Opposition.

I cannot therefore see why this clause has been dropped from the present Bill. The same applies to the second new clause, concerning Amendment No. 13, which would enable the Secretary of State to make similar provision for a reduction in the minimum age for driving buses. This again seems to be a matter of great importance, if we are to get sufficiently well-trained bus drivers in the future. I believe it has the support of the employers, and I should be astonished to hear that it is opposed by the union, though I suppose that is possible. But in any case I cannot see why the Government are reluctant to include both clauses. They are both entirely permissive; they give the Secretary of State the power to act if an agreed training scheme comes into being; and that seems to me to be a great advantage and one that should not be lost from the Bill. I beg to move.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

Perhaps I may have the understanding, if not the sympathy, of the Committee when I say that this is a somewhat difficult area of the Bill, because we are currently having discussions with the Transport and General Workers' Union. I wrote at some length to the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton, and told him as frankly as I could what the position was. I greatly appreciate the manner in which the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has moved this Amendment. I can fully appreciate his feelings and his anxieties regarding the matters raised in these two Amendments. The Government fully recognise the desire of the operators and the road-freight transport industry for the implementation of the previously agreed scheme, of which the noble Lord has spoken. I want to say equally frankly that they have renewed their representations on the matter, and the Minister for Transport is giving this his urgent attention. Clearly, this is an area where, provided we can get agreement, it will be possible to make easier progress than if we were to make a decision while there is still disagreement.

The noble Lord, quite rightly, said there was agreement when the previous Bill was before the Committee. When the present Bill was drafted the Government felt it best not to include the previous provisions because at the time of its publication—that is to say, of this present Bill—the Transport and General Workers' Union indicated that it had had second thoughts on certain aspects of the scheme. Discussions have been taking place between the Minister and the trade union, and they are still taking place this afternoon. Therefore I do not wish to say anything which might endanger the successful outcome of these discussions and deliberations. If we can secure the maximum good will and if the doubts of the union can be resolved, then I am sure the long-term effect on the industry will be beneficial. I assure the Committee, and in particular the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, that the Government recognise the importance which the operators attach to this clause.

With regard to the following Amendment, the Government recognise the importance which the operators attach to this, and if we can reach agreement then we shall be pleased to include the Amendments dealing with these matters during the later stages of the Bill. I regret that I cannot be more specific this afternoon. This morning I made urgent inquiries to see whether the matter could be further explained to the Committee; but discussions are still going on and one can only hope that they will be fruitful in the sense that all the doubts which have been expressed will be satisfactorily resolved. I should like to think that the noble Lord will not press this Amendment because I believe that in the interests of the industry itself, if we can get complete agreement—and it existed before, as the noble Lord has indicated—it will be to everybody's advantage.

LORD CHAMPION

Unlike the Transport and General Workers' Union, I have had not had second thoughts about this matter. It seems to me that what we did when in Opposition was absolutely sound, and I hope this will eventually be adopted as part of the Bill itself. I would ask my noble friend to consider whether there is a possibility that the negotiation may be concluded in order that we can consider this matter further at the Report stage. I must admit I should not like to see the Bill pass from this Chamber without a reference to this important matter being included, generally on the lines of the new clauses as moved by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

I should like to support my noble friend on these Amendments and to express agreement with everything he has already said. He did in fact leave out one important consideration concerning the career opportunity that an approved driver-training apprenticeship, as it might be called, would bring to an increasing number of young people. I have already received letters from many youngsters (some as young as 14), asking how they can get into lorry-driving as a career. Without such a scheme, of course, the career would be blocked. This means that by the time they are 21 years of age their interest has either waned or they will have taken up other employment. I found Lord Garnsworthy's response to my noble friend rather unhelpful—in fact, he added nothing to what was said on Second Reading, and that in itself was not satisfactory.

It is my understanding that the Transport and General Workers' Union, which also has in support the Scottish Motormen's Union, has no great objection to the scheme regarding goods vehicles, but it has one or two outstanding queries in regard to passenger service vehicles. It is my understanding that the United Road Transport Union—and it is only these three unions which look after the interests of commercial vehicle drivers in the country—has no violent objection. It seems to me that if only a few months ago the Government, whose members were then in Opposition, and ourselves had reached agreement and in general terms this House was happy about the arrangements, then this House should lead rather than follow any trade union second thoughts in the matter. It is my understanding that the differences are small. If we delayed now, it could well be 12 or 18 months before this matter was discussed again, for Road Traffic Bills come before us fairly regularly. Here is an ideal opportunity for this House to give some kind of leadership to the industry and unions concerned, and also to the very large number of younger people who want to enter the industry. The purpose of Parliament is to give leadership in these instances where there is no very violent disagreement, and it is my hope that my noble friend will not withdraw his Amendment.

LORD TEVIOT

My name is on the Amendment, and I beg the Committee's pardon for not being present when it was moved and when the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, made his reply. I absolutely agree with my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth regarding young people. One can understand the union's point of view—which I mentioned when the Bill was discussed during the time of the previous Administration—and the union does look after its members. One realises the record of young people and their rather "dare-devil" behaviour on the road, but this industry suffers from a lack of staff. My noble friend Lord Lucas—and he and I made our maiden speeches on the 1968 Transport Act on the very same day—has just referred to young people. Perhaps the unions could provide a scheme under which they were able to offer some facilities for people under 21, which might be helpful. But I do not think that young people should be restricted from the training scheme before they are 21. The age of 21 is now getting rather remote. People now vote at 18 and surely that age should apply here.

LORD SLATER

We cannot ignore the observations and sentiments expressed by my noble friend Lord Champion regarding what was said when this Bill was going through the House on a previous occasion. Nor can we ignore the emphasis placed by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, on training. At one time, one never had training for young people in the mining industry, but it has now become an outstanding feature for young people. Before a youngster is allowed to go down below and experience the rigid forms of hardship down a mine, he must receive a certain period of apprenticeship training on the surface under proper tuition, and I am all in favour of this type of training.

I am concerned about the public service vehicle licence, and perhaps the noble Lord will clarify the matter. Within the past week, there has been a statement made about women drivers being employed by London Transport, because of the lack of men. Anyone who has been connected with this matter knows that to take over control of some heavy vehicles is very difficult. A heavy vehicle is not like a motor car, which can be turned easily and simply. I have watched many drivers using every ounce of energy and strength in order to take a vehicle round a corner. Perhaps the noble Lord can clarify the position as to the age limit for these young trainees who want to qualify for a P.S.V. licence.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, I do not know the intentions of my noble friend Lord Aberdare, but I sincerely hope he will take this Amendment to a Division. The noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, is not being fair to all sides. The present Government agreed a scheme which was in the Bill earlier, and then the noble Lord told us. "Because the union have had second thoughts, please defer the matter to-day. We hope it will be made all right by further negotiation." I am paraphrasing what the noble Lord said. That seems to me an unfair position in which to put Members of the Committee. Surely we as a Parliament are legislating without having to listen to what I would term, without offence, his master's voice. We are legislating as to whether something is right or wrong, and surely it is better to pass this Amendment to-day and then rely upon subsequent negotiations coming to a successful conclusion. In that way we shall be doing our duty as Members of this Committee, rather than listening to what the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, said and hesitating to-day.

3.19 p.m.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

It would be foolish on my part if I showed myself insensitive to the feelings of the Committee. I was as frank as I could be, and I think most Members of the Committee will appreciate that I am circumscribed by events over which I personally have no control. I suggested to the Committee that the Minister is continuing to give this matter his urgent consideration, and if those considerations can be brought to a successful conclusion he will be pleased to include this clause in the Bill. In view of the opinion that has already been expressed—and I have taken note of what my noble friends Lord Champion and Lord Slater, and the noble Lords, Lord Lucas of Chilworth and Lord Teviot, have said—I want to make it clear that I have no intention of seeking to oppose what is clearly the desire of the Committee on this matter. I hope that that might help us make a little progress, and indicate that we recognise that the Committee feels strongly on this point. But if it wishes to include this clause and the following Amendment in the Bill, so be it.

LORD ABERDARE

May I say thank you very much to the noble Lord. This is a most welcome gesture at the beginning of this Committee stage to-day and I am very grateful.

In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Slater, so far as the public service vehicle general training scheme is concerned, this has not yet been fully worked out; therefore, I am sure that the considerations he has brought forward will be borne in mind. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, for saying he will accept the Amendments. I wish him well in the future negotiations with the Transport and General Workers Union.

LORD SHEPHERD

Before the Question is put, may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, that his comments to my noble friend were quite unfair, using his own phrase, and completely unjustified.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHYRE

Which comments please?

LORD SHEPHERD

When the noble Lord referred to the fact that my noble friend was being unfair to the Committee in the approach and explanation he was giving here. I can put on Record that a large number of noble Lords have expressed appreciation of what my noble friend has done, not in your Lordships' House but outside, in Committee rooms of the House and his own office, seeking ways and means of establishing how a point could be met. I intervene only because I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, was being fair to my noble friend, who has sought to meet the wishes of your Lordships' House on many occasions.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

I am not going to accept a rebuke from the Leader of the House. I had no wish at all to be unfair to the Minister. All I said was that it was very peculiar, not on the Minister's part but on the Government's part, to alter their minds at the behest of what I termed their master's voice. I do not withdraw that at all. It is the trade union leaders' voice which is dictating policy here, as it has in so many other directions. I do not blame the Minister at all; he is but a Member of the Executive. But I still maintain that it is unfair to expect your Lordships not to legislate according to our will and conviction but to have to defer to a third party.

LORD SHEPHERD

I think the noble Lord would be the last one to wish to delay the Committee, but I do not think my noble friend has at any time suggested that the will of your Lordships should not be taken into consideration.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

The noble Lord said it should be deferred.

LORD SHEPHERD

There have been many occasions on which Ministers have asked for decisions to be deferred while other consultations took place. The noble Lord is a very fair man and I think that if he will look at his words tomorrow he will see that he was being unfair to my noble friend. We might discuss this matter outside and reach an amicable arrangement. I hope the noble Lord will now move his Amendment so that we may move to the next part of our Business.

LORD CHAMPION

Do I understand my noble friend is proceeding to a Division on this Amendment?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

No; he has accepted it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ABERDARE

I beg to move Amendment No. 13. I understand the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, is willing to accept this Amendment also.

Amendment moved—

After Clause 14 insert the following new clause:

Licences for persons under 21

".—(1) In subsection (3) of section 144 of the 1960 Act (minimum age for obtaining licences to drive and act as conductor of a public service vehicle) after the words "twenty-one" there shall be inserted the words "or is over the age of eighteen and fulfils such conditions as may be prescribed with respect to his training and employment (including membership of a training scheme approved by the Secretary of State)".

(2) At the end of subsection (4) of that section (licences to drive public service vehicles may be limited to particular types of vehicles) there shall be added the words "and a licence granted to a person under the age of twenty-one shall be issued subject to such conditions as may he prescribed; and if any person under the age of twenty-one drives a public service vehicle in contravention of any such conditions he shall be treated for the purposes of subsection (1) of this section as driving the vehicle without being licensed for the purpose".

(3) After subsection (5) of that section there shall be added the following subsection:— (5A) If there comes into existence, in relation to the holder of a licence to drive a public service vehicle who is under the age of twenty-one, such circumstances as may he prescribed relating to his conduct as the driver of a motor vehicle, the authoirity by whom the licence was granted shall revoke the licence.

(4) In section 4 of the 1972 Act (minimum age for driving motor vehicles) after subsection (1) there shall be inserted the following subsection:— (1A) Nothing in subsection (1) above shall prohibit a person who is over the age of 18—

  1. (a) from driving a heavy motor car which is a public service vehicle for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act 1960 if he is the holder of a licence under section 144 of that Act to drive such a vehicle; or
  2. (b) from driving, in such circumstances as may be prescribed, a heavy motor car which is constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects but which (because at the time in question it is not being used for carrying passengers for hire or reward) is not a public service vehicle for the purposes of that Act.""— (Lord Aberdare.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ABERDARE moved Amendment No. 14:

After Clause 14 insert the following new clause:

Certain small vehicles not to be public service vehicles

".—(1) After subsection (2) of section 118 of the 1960 Act there shall be inserted the following subsection:— (2A) Without prejudice to subsections (1) and (2) above a vehicle adapted to carry not more than 12 passengers, although used for carrying passengers for hire or reward, shall be treated as not being a public service vehicle if—

  1. (a) it is not customarily operated in the course of a business which consists of or includes the carriage of passengers for hire or reward; and
  2. (b) the only passengers carried in the course of a journey are those who made arrangements to he carried on the vehicle before it began that journey; and
  3. (c) except in the case of a journey the arrangements for which have been made with, or with the approval of, the council of a county or district, the journey is made without previous advertisement to the public of facilities for its being made by passengers to be carried at separate fares ".

(2) Part 11 of Schedule 12 to the 1960 Act (conditions in which certain vehicles carrying not more than four passengers at separate fares are not to he treated as public service vehicles) shall be amended as follows:—

  1. "(a) for the word 'four', in each place where is occurs, there shall be substituted '5'
  2. (b) at the beginning of paragraph 4 (no previous advertisement of the journey) there shall be inserted the words 'Except in the case of a journey the arrangments for which have been made with, or with the approval of, the council of a county or district;' and
  3. (c) paragraph 5 (the journey must not be one on which passengers arc regularly carried) shall be omitted "."

The noble Lord said: If the noble Lord is prepared to go on accepting these Amendments, I can make my speech very brief.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

I hope the noble Lord will include Amendments Nos. 15 and 16 with Amendment No. 14.

LORD ABERDARE

I most certainly will. May I say a few words in general about the three Amendments, Nos. 14, 15 and 16, before I come to the details of Amendment No. 14. The object of these three Amendments is to introduce greater flexibility into the system of licensing vehicles to carry fare-paying passengers in rural areas. We did a great deal when we were last in Office to try to alleviate the decline in road passenger transport in rural areas. We provided financial support for uneconomic rural bus services; we gave grants for new buses and a rebate on fuel duty to bus operators; we made a grant to the National Bus Company to prevent fare increases; we relaxed the limits on passenger vehicle drivers' hours in order to improve the flexibility of bus services; and we encouraged experiments to facilitate the use of forms of transport other than the bus.

In the Bill that we brought forward we included four clauses which were designed to achieve this greater flexibility. It may be that on second thoughts, looking back now, we went too far in our proposals, and certainly when we brought them forward at the last Committee stage we were criticised by the noble Lord, Lord Champion, and also by my noble friend Lord Teviot. We took those criticisms very much to heart and we continued to discuss the whole matter with the industry. It would have been our intention had we still been in Government to introduce modified proposals which would have achieved much of the flexibility that we were looking for, but with less danger of damage to the interests of the bus operators—a factor that had been laid at our door in the course of the last Committee stage. The present Amendments represent these modified proposals.

I have reason to believe that they are perfectly acceptable to the bus operators. I would sincerely hope that they are acceptable also to the unions. I should certainly expect them to be acceptable to to the present Minister of Transport, the present Government, as they follow very closely Amendments which were put down to our previous Bill by official Labour Party spokesmen in another place. They have, happily, met the criticisms of my noble friend Lord Teviot who, I am very glad to see, has been able to add his name in support of these Amendments. I am very grateful to him. I imagine that they are acceptable to the present Minister of Transport, Mr. Fred Mulley, because on the Second Reading of our Bill in another place on January 30 last he said: We would have liked to see something more dramatic to meet the problems of public transport, especially in rural areas."—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, col. 472, 30/1/74.] Above all, I am sure that these clauses will be welcome to all of your Lordships who are concerned about transport in rural areas, for they will help those people who provide informal lifts in their private cars, charitable organisations, like the Women's Royal Voluntary Service and the Red Cross, who provide informal lifts and help to those who need help in transport in the rural areas and, indeed, to all of those whose efforts need to be harnessed in order to alleviate the problem, but at the same time without damage to the interests of the existing bus services.

The Government have not been too clever in their handling so far of their dealings with the rural areas. Their rate support grant proposals were more favourable to the town dweller than to the countryman. Their prices policy favours the interests of the consumer at the expense of the farmer. Here is an opportunity for them to show that they really care about the rural areas by agreeing to assist the rural bus services and to make the system more flexible. We feel deeply committed to these clauses and we look for a sympathetic response from the Government.

If I may explain the meaning of the first new clause, Clause 14, this would allow owners of mini-buses—that is defined in the clause as vehicles adapted to carry not more than 12 passengers—in other words, vehicles seating 13 people altogether with the driver—to help with lifts and to receive a contribution towards their expenses without the necessity for a public service vehicle licence, subject to three conditions, which are listed as paragraphs (a), (b) and (c). Condition (a) is that the vehicle is not usually operated in the course of a business connected with passenger transport. Condition (b) is that the vehicle is not plying for hire—and this a new way of defining "plying for hire" which we think is more effective than just those words, which have always been slightly disputable. Condition (c) is that the journey shall not be advertised in advance, but with the one exception in this case that it can be advertised if authorised by the council of a county or a district. This is an important provision because counties and districts now have a duty under the 1972 Local Government Act to co-ordinate public transport, and therefore it is helpful if they are able to authorise some advertisement of these informal lift services provided by private cars and mini-buses. So this Amendment in subsection (1) will allow charitable organisations to do much valuable work with their social services using cars and sometimes mini-buses.

Subsection (2) concerns cars. This updates Part II of Schedule 12 to the 1960 Act in three respects. In paragraph (a) it changes the word "four" to "five" so as to define "car" as a vehicle with up to five passenger seats. The present definition is up to four passenger seats, but, as your Lordships are well aware, many modern cars have six seats in all—that is the driver's seat plus five—and so this amounts to an Amendment which widens the definition of "car" to bring it up to date. Paragraph (b) I have already spoken about. This is the provision about advertisements with the same exception in the case of a county or district council. Paragraph (c) omits the words: the journey must not be one on which passengers are regularly carried", so as to facilitate cases where a person is regularly carried to work in some car or mini-bus of this kind. It will also, incidentally, remove a provision which was almost impossible to enforce.

That is the clause I am proposing that your Lordships should insert in this Bill. It would bring much needed flexibility to the public service vehicle arrangements in the case of private cars and mini-buses. We have deliberately modified our proposals since the proposals in our last Bill, to meet the objections of noble Lords and Members of another place in the Party opposite, and to meet the objections of bus operators. We believe that it will now provide a useful relaxation of the present rules and will be of considerable benefit to rural areas, without damaging the interests of the bus operators. I beg to move.

3.34 p.m.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

The Committee will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for the explanation he has given for moving these Amendments. As he said, they seek to restore in modified form a large part of the provisions on bus licensing contained in the previous Administration's own Road Traffic Bill. During the debate on Second Reading my noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich referred to the fact that the proposals of the former Bill had been cirticised by both sides of industy, and he explained the Government had accordingly decided to meet them both for discussions on rural transport problems before deciding on the merits of the previous proposals. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has told us that he has reason to believe that the present proposals are acceptable to the road operators. I am not able to report that discussions have been concluded with all those parties involved, but I sense that the Committee is behind Lord Aberdare and I shall not therefore oppose the Amendment; because I have quite clearly indicated that I am not insensitive, nor are the Government themselves insensitive, to any strong feeling that may be expressed. The Government themselves are always ready to consider proposals.

I was a little sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, ventured into the realms of the rate support grant. I do not propose to take him up on that, beyond saying that there is a great deal to be said about the matter, and the difficulties that many ratepayers are finding are due, not merely to one small, comparatively minor measure that has been undertaken since this Government have been in office, but in much larger measure to the way in which local government itself has been reorganised and the framing of the rate support grant generally. I hope that with those few words Lord Aberdare will feel he has succeeded in his objective.

LORD TEVIOT

I can only say I was delighted to hear the words of the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, accepting these Amendments. In the last Bill I was supporting the noble Lord, Lord Champion, and I am happy to support my noble friend Lord Aberdare much more so. They are extremely moderate Amendments and I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, commends them to the Committee.

LORD ABERDARE

This is a very remarkable Committee stage and I hope it continues like this for the rest of the day. I am sincerely grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said. He has judged the mood of the Committee without anybody actually having spoken on the Amendments, but he was probably right in judging the Committee's views. Again, I can only wish him the best of good fortune in the course of the discussions he is having, and hope that these will bear fruit and that help for the rural services will emerge as we trust it will.

LORD SHINWELL

Has my noble friend Lord Garnsworthy not observed the difference on this occasion as compared with what happened during the Committee stage debates on the Industrial Relations Bill and other Bills when we were in Opposition and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and his colleagues were in Government? Then they refused to accept a single Amendment. They were as inflexible as it was possible to be. The rigidity was so obvious. They were so obstinate, even perverse. Note the difference! Here is my noble friend Lord Garnsworthy, so resilient, so ready to yield. What a transformation, all to the good! Sometimes it is better to have a consensus of opinion than a confrontation, I agree. Nevertheless, I am taking note. It may be that some day we shall be in Opposition again—who can tell?—and we shall expect better treatment than we received on previous occasions.

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

Would the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, also take note that when we were in Government, and he was in Opposition, we took note of the wishes of this House in relation to parking of motor-cars on footpaths?

LORD GARNSWORTHY

I hope that we shall not go too wide in our discussions. We have managed to have introduced rate support grant and one or two other things. My noble friend Lord Shinwell has now brought in industrial relations, in the interests of everybody concerned. I think that we ought now to make a little progress on the Bill before the Committee.

VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN

I wonder whether the Minister would answer a question which really is connected with the Bill; namely, does the Bill apply to Scotland? If so, transport is a regional matter, and regions are not mentioned in the Bill. We shall not have counties in Scotland.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

Since I have been in this House I have studiously kept out of Scottish affairs. I hope that I am doing so this afternoon.

VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN

This is not an argument, it is merely that we shall need to have a Scottish Bill if this point is not put right.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ABERDARE

I have not explained Amendment No. 15 but if, as I understand, the noble Lord is going to accept it I do not think that I need explain it. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

After Clause 14 insert the following new Clause.

Modifications of provisions relating to permits for certain bus services

.—(1) Section 30 of the Transport Act 1968 (permits for certain bus services in lieu of road service licences) shall have effect subject to the modifications specified in the following provisions of this section. and references in those provisions to section 30 shall be construed accordingly.

(2) In subsection (1)(a) of section 30 (permits for use as stage carriages of vehicles adapted to carry not more than 12 passengers) after the words "stage carriage" there shall be inserted the words "or express carriage".

(3) In subsection W(b) of section 30 (permits for use as stage carriages or express carriages of certain vehicles used to provide transport for school children) the words "(not being a vehicle belonging to a local education authority or, in Scotland, an education authority)" shall be omitted.

(4) In subsection (2) of section 30 (matters with respect to which the traffic commissioners are to be satisfied before granting a permit) for the words "there are no other transport facilities available to meet the reasonable needs of the proposed route" there shall be substitute4 the words "it will be in the interests of the public to do so, having regard to any other transport facilities which there may be"." (Lord Aberdare.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ABERDARE: I beg to move Amendment No. 16.

Amendment moved—

After Clause 14 insert the following new clause:

Modifications of criteria for grant of and attachment of conditions to road service licences

".—(1) Subject to subsection (2) below, subsection (2) of section 135 of the 1960 Act (matters to be taken into consideration by traffic commissioners in granting or refusing road service licences or attaching conditions to such licences) shall be amended as follows:

  1. (a) after the words "shall have regard" there shall he inserted the words "to the interests of the public and subject thereto, shall have regard also"; and
  2. (b) for paragraphs (c) and (d) there shall be substituted the following paragraphs:
  3. "(c) the needs of the area as a whole in relation to traffic;
  4. (d) any statement of policy or any plans relating to the needs of the area in connection with transport matters which are submitted in evidence to the commissioners and which have been prepared by a body charged by or under any enactment with the responsibility for formulating policies to meet those needs.".

(2) Nothing in subsection (1) above shall apply—

  1. (a) in relation to an application to any traffic commissioners for a road service licence or for the exercise by them of their power to vary the conditions attached to such a licence, if the application is made before the coming into operation of that subsection; or
  2. (b) in relation to a proposal by any traffic commissioners to vary the conditions attached to a road service licence (otherwise than in pursuance of an application falling within paragraph (a) above), if the notice of the proposal to exercise their power is given before the coming into operation of that subsection; or
  3. (c) in relation to any appeal arising out of any application or proposal in relation to which, by virtue of paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) above, subsection (1) above does not apply.

(3) In any case where—

  1. (a) a person making an application to the traffic commissioners for the grant of a road service licence submits to them a certificate issued to the applicant by the Secretary of State and stating that in the opinion of the Secretary of State the grant of a licence is necessary to enable a road service in respect of a route specified in the certificate to be provided as an alternative to a railway passenger service which has been or is to 821 be discontinued or in consequence of the discontinuance of such a service, and
  2. (b) it appears to the commissioners that the application is for a road service licence in respect of the route specified in the certificate,
the commissioners shall grant the applicant a road service licence in respect of that route, and section 153(2) of the 1960 Act (traffic commissioners to hold public sittings for purpose of hearing and determining applications for the grant of a licence) shall not apply in relation to the application.

(4) In any case where—

  1. (a) a person making an application to the traffic commissioners under section 135(5) of the 1960 Act for the variation of the conditions attached to a road service licence submits to them a certificate from the Secretary of State stating that in the opinion of the Secretary of State the variations specified in the certificate of the conditions attached to the licence are necessary to enable the holder of the licence to vary the service provided by him under the licence either so as to provide an alternative to a railway passenger service which has been or is to be discontinued or in consequence of the discontinuance of such a service, and
  2. (b) the application requests the making of the variations specified in the certificate and no other variations,
  3. the traffic commissioners shall make the variations to which the application relates.

(5) If a certificate from the Secretary of State submitted to any traffic commissioners by a person making an application falling within subsection (3) or subsection (4) above states that, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, certain conditions specified in the certificate and relating to the matters referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b) of section 135(4) of the 1960 Act (fares etc.) should be attached to the road service licence for which the application is made or, as the case may be, to the conditions of which the application relates, the traffic commissioners shall secure that those conditions are so attached, but without prejudice to their power to attach any other conditions which do not conflict with those specified in the certificate.

(6) Section 143 of the 1960 Act (appeals in connection with road service licences etc.) shall not apply in respect of the grant of a licence by virtue of subsection (3) above or the variation of any conditions by virtue of subsection (4) above."—(Lord Aberdare.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 15 agreed to.

3.42 p.m.

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON moved Amendment No. 17:

After Clause 15 insert the following new clause

"(1) In section 98 of the Transport Act 1968 (written records with respect to drivers' hours) after subsection (2) there shall be inserted the following subsection:— "(2A) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2)(e) of this section, regulations under this section may make provision for exemptions from all or any of the requirements of the regulations in relation to a vehicle in which there is installed equipment for recording information as to the use of the vehicle, being equipment—
  1. (a) compiling with the relevant type approval requirements, within the meaning of section 47 of the Road Traffic Act 1972; and
  2. (b) in respect of which there are fulfilled any prescribed conditions (including conditions as to the payment of fees) with respect to the installation, maintenance, use, inspection, testing and certification of the equipment, the keeping and preservation of records in connection with the equipment and the preservation of records produced by means of the equipment".

(2) At the end of the said section 98 there shall be added the following subsection:— (6) In any case where, by virtue of any provision made under subsection (2A) above, a person claims to be exempt in respect of any vehicle from any requirement of regulations under this section, a record produced by means of recording equipment installed in the vehicle and falling within paragraphs (a) and (b) of that subsection shall, in any proceedings under this Part of this Act, be evidence of the matters appearing from the record.".

(3) In section 99 of the Transport Act 1968 (inspection of records and other documents) at the end of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) there shall he added the words "or, if he is exempt from any requirement of regulations under section 98 of this Act by virtue of any provision made under subsection (2A) of that section, any record which he is required to preserve as a condition of that exemption".

(4) In subsection (5) of the said section 99, after the words "section 97 of this Act" there shall be inserted the words "or any record which he is required to preserve as a condition of such an exemption as is mentioned in subsection (1)(b) of this section".

(5) At the end of the said section 99 there shall be inserted the following subsection:— (11) In the case of a vehicle in respect of which any person is exempt, by virtue of subsection (2A) of section 98 of this Act, from any requirement of regulations under that section, the references in subsections (2)(a) and (10) of this section to equipment installed in a vehicle for the purposes of section 97 of this Act shall be construed as references to the equipmnt which, by virtue of its installation in the vehicle, gives rise to the exemption.".

The noble Lord said: I apologise, but I was not here at the beginning this afternoon and I am not clear whether the benevolence of the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, included this clause too. Can I sit down and assume acceptance, or would he like me to move it formally and explain it?

LORD GARNSWORTHY

I think that it would be to the advantage of the Corn-mince if the noble Lord explained this Amendment. It covers rather different ground. It is impossible for me to read the mind of the Committee without at least seeing their facial reaction to what is being said.

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am gratified by his facial reaction so far. This Amendment is again inserting what we had in our previous Bill, which is basically the tachograph. I do not want to weary your Lordships with a long and detailed account. The details, as in this Amendment No. 17, are somewhat misleading. They appear to be relieving drivers of heavy vehicles of having to record certain things that they otherwise would have to do. This is indeed a state of affairs that they will be relieved of. However, the tachograph which, if installed, would enable people to be excused from having to record these extra details, will be with us assuming that we stay in the Common Market. On every vote we have had in this House we have had a heavy majority that the ideals of the Common Market are acceptable.

By 1980 all vehicles in the Common Market will have to have definite and strict tachograph requirements. If this Amendment is accepted a lesser form of tachograph will be allowed, which will relieve drivers. There is a myth, a fairy tale going about that the unions are against this measure. When I was in the Department of the Environment I had many talks with no doubt the same civil servants as the noble Lord who is answering. From my understanding of these conversations, the unions were not half as opposed to this measure as they are generally represented to be by people who do not know about the tachograph.

The ignorant person says that no one likes the unknown "Big Brother" in the dark watching you, and that will be a horrible spy in the dark looking at an innocent driver. I do not think that this is anything of the kind. I do not believe that the unions take this line either. From what I knew of the con versations, they recognised that the tachograph was a modern invention which gave a recorded account of the events of the driving of a vehicle. It will record whether you accelerate fast, brake heavily frequently, and all kinds of things about your driving. This is not necessarily so bad. If you are the father of a family, you know perfectly well if your family car is taken out over four weekends by yourself, your wife, son, or daughter, for the same journey, you may get totally different recordings of consumption of petrol. You may also, if you were a good engineer and able to examine your car, find that the wear and tear on that car had also been altered considerably by the different driving of those four people. The tachograph can help a firm to understand which drivers are driving sensibly and well, and which are not.

This is not a matter of penal sanctions, but rather a matter of help. The driver who is not driving well can be helped and advised. He can be asked to go out with the driver who has a good tachograph. so that he can see where his errors have lain. Nothing is better than example. Since the debate on December 4, on which I spoke last at length on this subject, there has been a case in the courts where a driver accused of speeding has been acquitted because he was able to produce his tachograph. The tachograph can show the speeds at which drivers were going. The tachograph is an innocent bystander that pays honest witness to the truth. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

The various Bills that we have passed for safety on the roads, for the protection of the health of drivers of lorries or buses, or anyone employed in public transport, have been passed with the intention of protecting the public. If you are to argue that the intentions of the Government, and past Governments and future Governments, ought to be by-passed through not knowing what is happening, you may say that the tachograph is a bad instrument. The tachograph will tell the truth on this, so to that extent you have to stand up and be counted as not minding the truth being known. But I do not believe that the average driver of buses or heavy commercial vehicles, and all the various associations that move vehicles, would mind this being known. The good driver, the genuine driver, will not mind. Obviously, one will mind if one is half-an-hour early or half-an-hour late, but we have to bring our common sense to bear here.

Let me emphasise once again that if we stay in the E.E.C. the requirement will be there. This will enable our operators for the time being to put in the form of tachograph that we have working in this country, and they will be excused from putting in the more expensive, more information-giving, long-term tachograph which will come later. This will give our operators time to get practice and experience of the tachograph. It is really a matter of simple common sense, in trying to balance the desires of the Transport Ministry, and of all people who are interested in good driving and in the safety and health of our operators, to see that this is done with the least possible trouble and the least possible human inspection. Nobody likes to be asked questions every minute of the day. In this day and age, a card on your vehicle which cannot lie is not something which we ought lightly to discard. I beg to move.

LORD SLATER

In moving his Amendment the noble Lord seemed to base his argument on what is happening in the E.E.C. Why, in heaven's name, does the Opposition, who we know are strong supporters of the E.E.C., always have to remind us of what is happening in the E.E.C.? Surely we are able to think for ourselves in this country and operate our motor vehicles in the way we want. People who are driving these heavy lorries do not want someone on their tails all the time, but that is what will happen with these new attachments and a person's driving can be reported back to his employers. If the noble Lord made that speech in the company of lorry or heavy vehicle drivers in this country, he would immediately be howled down. They would believe that he was seeking to reflect upon their efficiency and their ability to have charge of a moving vehicle.

I sincerely hope that my noble friend will give serious consideration to this Amendment and will not give way easily on this issue. If he does, the next suggestion we shall have from the Benches opposite will be that we drive on the wrong side of the road, while those on the Continent drive on the right side, and we should therefore drive on their side. The Minister has been very forthcoming, and I hope he stands firm against this Amendment.

LORD GARNSWORTHY

In reply to my noble friend, let me say right away that, so far as I understand the position of the Government, we intend generally to keep left. The noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton, invited us to a flight of fancy about what happens to the family car if it is used at weekends by different members of a family. I am not sure whether the son would enjoy having a tachograph; he would probably much more enjoy having somebody else with him than having to worry about a tachograph. As explained during Second Reading, the Government quite deliberately did not seek the powers that this Amendment would provide in the Bill. We do not consider it right to encourage industry to speculate on tachographs, while the general uncertainty of the E.E.C. situation prevails. The scheme of the previous Administration to encourage voluntary fitment was conceived, as I understand it and as I think your Lordships will recall, in the light of our E.E.C. obligations to fit tachographs compulsorily to certain goods and passenger vehicles from January 1, 1976. It is the Government's view that when membership of the E.E.C. is resolved that will be the time to consider what action should be taken.

The noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton, reminded the House that when we discussed the E.E.C. a heavy majority had shown itself in favour of joining. I think it ought to be said—and I have tried to resist being provoked—that the country has not spoken on that issue and, may I say with the utmost respect, the view of the country is more important than what we here think, because it is the future of the British people that is involved. I am sorry that that point was brought in, and I felt I ought to make some reply. My noble friend Lord Slater has quite clearly been in touch with drivers and operators, and I think he has represented here this afternoon their feelings on the installation and use of tachographs. I myself have been advised in terms very similar to those he has used. I am aware that some operators have already installed tachographs as a result of encouragement by the previous Administration, but this Administration cannot take responsibility for that. This Government can see no good reason for the inclusion of tachographs in this Bill.

If the Committee feels that it wants to insist on this Amendment, I am not insensitive to what noble Lords wish to say and neither is the Government, but I think it would be premature. I am sorry to have to speak in this way, because I know what an enthusiast the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton, is on this matter. I happen to occupy the room which he previously used and every time I look at his picture—and I still have that one of Ibiza—my mind says, "Tachograph". So he can be assured that I appreciate fully his strength of feeling on this matter. I hope that I have made the view of the Government absolutely clear.

LORD WINDLESHAM

Despite the friendly references from the noble Lord who is handling this Bill for the Government, I am not sure that that explanation will satisfy the Committee. It is now four o'clock and I understood that at some point we would have the benefit of a Statement on coal. If that Statement has been cleared, perhaps this would be a convenient time to take it.

LORD SHEPHERD

The noble Lord well knows that we do not seek to take our Statements prematurely to those in another place. We have not yet received the signal that the Coal Statement has been taken, or is in the course of being taken, in the Commons. I am keeping a very careful watch on the place from which I expect the message to come, and as soon as the message is received I will certainly intervene so that the Statement can be made.

BARONESS0 WOOTTON OF ABINGER

It seems to me it is a pity that the E.E.C. has been dragged into this discussion. I should have thought that in this context it was a red herring, and not very red at that. I wish my noble friend Lord Garnsworthy would give some more arguments on merits about the content of this Amendment and not treat it in the context of the E.E.C. So far I do not think we have had many arguments on merit, the only argument being that it is not popular with certain professional drivers. If my noble friend can give some more convincing arguments I shall be happy to go along with him, but at the moment I feel that not enough positive has been said on his side.

LORD TEVIOT

Coupled with what the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, has just said, I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, a question. I think that it was his Government which originally introduced the tachograph clause into the 1968 Transport Bill. My name is on this Amendment, together with the names of my noble friends Lord Aberdare and Lord Mowbray and Stourton, and although I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton, will disagree with me, it is my view that this has to come to a head with the E.E.C., because we are in the Common Market. I agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Slater, has said. When I originally spoke on the Bill I was fresh from being a bus driver, I was very acid at the whole tone of the Bill, the very fact that "Big Brother" was to watch you, the very fact that you were to have something in your cab that was to report back on you in just the same way as we have a clock in this Chamber and two more on either side, and probably in about ten years' time we shall have many more clocks and many more rather nasty things as well. I think everything is perfectly horrible, but it is because of the times in which we are moving.

I should like this Amendment to be accepted. My noble friend Lord Mowbray and Stourton made many points with which I thoroughly disagree, but I hope we shall stay in the Common Market for a long time and that we shall get away from this nasty habit of everybody watching to see that everything is correctly done, which is like having nurses in starched blue uniforms. Therefore, I should like an answer to my original question to the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, as to why his previous Administration wanted to introduce the tachograph, and perhaps he can also answer the question raised by his noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

I am sorry to tell my noble friends that I am not in favour of these Amendments at this particular moment. The operators with whom I have dealings who have fitted the tachograph are contesting its reliability. In the event of an offence taking place where the evidence of the tachograph has to be taken this may well be contested. The cost of re-calibration of the only type of tachograph currently on the United Kingdom market is very high indeed. Neither does the fitting of such an instrument preclude the driver from completing a number of documents that are necessary for internal domestic journeys as well as for domestic and external journeys. It seems to me that until such time as there is an alteration in the regulations regarding documentation of vehicles leaving some part of the United Kingdom, travelling part of their journey as a domestic, in-England journey, and the other part of their journey on the Continent where a different set of documentation is required, the purpose of the tachograph will be completely lost. Until such time as documentation, either mechanical or manual is agreed, it would seem wrong to insist upon the use of such instruments.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, in order that the House may hear the Statement on the Coal Industry I beg to move that the House do now resume.

Moved, That the House do now resume.—(Lord Strabolgi.)

On Question, Motion agreed to and House resumed accordingly.