§ 2.59 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT BROOKEBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the proposal by the I.R.A. to hold a conference of" terrorist internationals"in Belfast next month; and what action they propose to take.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGE)My Lords, I assume that the noble Viscount is referring to the conference which is being held in Dublin, and subsequently in Belfast, and organised by the official Sinn Fein. I understand that the theme of the conference is anti-imperialism, and that it will be held under the slogan "The Struggle of the Irish People is the Struggle of the World". The organisers of the conference plan to open it in Dublin on July 22, and continue in Belfast from July 29 to August 3.
I understand that the Official Sinn Fein have invited a number of political groups from other countries, and that there will 734 be lectures, discussions and films. The matter is being kept closelyunder review, but I must make it clear at this stage that British tolerance of political views does not extend to criminal terrorists. Her Majesty's Government will continue to take all steps in their power to ensure that people who have committed terrorist crimes do not enter the United Kingdom for any purpose, and to prevent public disorder arising from meetings, marches or demonstrations.
§ VISOUNT BROOKEBOROUGHMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, which I find very unsatisfactory because it does not appear to me to ban a most undesirable meeting, may I ask him whether he is aware that the organisers have equally made it public that the people taking part are Marxist revolutionaries? From the use of the word "revolutionary" and because last weekend we saw something of "peaceful" revolutionaries, and that it is therefore undesirable, can he tell the House what is the advice from the Security Forces and whether he has consulted the Dublin Government on the advisability of this matter? Is he aware that within five miles of the particular area in which this "peaceful" revolutionary conference is to be held, 500 people have died as a result of the original efforts of those "peaceful" revolutionaries?
§ LORD DONALDSON OF KINGS-BRIDGEMy Lords, first of all co-operation with the Dublin Government of course exists, and we have every reason to suppose that the Dublin Government are as hostile to the import of criminals as we are. There is an international police arrangement for dealing with this matter and it is not my Department's business to operate it, but only to to know that it is alert. It is alert. The second part of the noble Lord's supplementary question is difficult to reply to because it assumes a certain number of things of which we are not aware. It is certainly true that if convicted terrorists get in, for one reason or another, they will be subject to the law in so far as we can identify them. What we cannot do, and do not propose to do, is to alter the law of the United Kingdom to prevent people holding views we do not agree with, provided they do that within the law as it stands. If they exceed or 735 cross those barriers we are ready and prepared to deal with them.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, would not the Minister agree that this business of bringing in the words "Marxist" and "Communist" and various other words, simply seeks to take away some of the blame from the I.R.A.
§ LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGEMy Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's question. I always prefer to speak of dialectical materialism rather than Marxism. I do not think it makes a great deal of difference what you call it. What we are against in this country, and on both sides of the House, is not people holding revolutionary views, but people who indulge in revolutionary action.
§ LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, has the attention of my noble twin been drawn to the reports in the weekend Press to the effect that both branches of the I.R.A. are currently being trained and armed by the K.G.B.? Would the noble Lord care to comment on that, or let the House at some later stage know the view of the Government about this matter?
§ LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGEMy Lords, I should prefer to take the latter course because although I have seen the Press reports, I have not seen confirmation of them from more reliable sources.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree, setting aside all references to revolutionaries, Marxism and the rest, that the vital issue is whether the Security Forces in Ulster have been consulted about this matter because it may impinge on our security and that is the vital issue? What are the Government doing about that?
§ LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGEMy Lords, of course an event of this kind is discussed with the Security Forces. There is no question about that. I have heard it discussed myself.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, can we understand from the Minister's reply that the authorities will scrutinise those taking part in this meeting in order to see whether any wanted 736 men are in that meeting and, if so, that appropriate action will be taken to arrest the same?
§ LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGEMy Lords, the answer is basically "Yes" to that question. The delegates—if that is the right name for them—are expected to come in from the South. There are certain difficulties about scrutinising entry from the South as your Lordships will realise, but subject to that the answer is "Yes".
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, in view of the Minister's first reply and the emphasis he put on the limitations of the character of the conference, will there he any intention of the authorities intervening at any point if it is clear that that discussion goes beyond the limited terms which the Minister just gave? Secondly, since the noble Lord clearly stated that they would take great care to prevent the entry into Northern Ireland of any who are known to have been associated with disruption, will those carrying British passports who have been in that category in different parts of the world, be screened as carefully as, it is to be assumed, will foreigners who come into the country? Does the Minister realise, lastly, what unfortunate publicity has been given to the whole world by permitting this conference of subversive jamborees?
§ LORD DONALDSON OF KINGS-BRIDGEMy Lords, in answer to the first part of the question, I repeat the answer that I have already given: if the people attending the conference break the law they will be dealt with, and we are quite ready and able to deal with them. There is no fear here. On the second question, may I say that the holding of a British passport is no defence against a criminal record.