§ 3.2 p.m.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement on the exploratory talks which took place in Madrid on May 30 and 31 last following the United Nations Fourth Committee Consensus on Gibraltar adopted by the General Assembly on December 14, 1973.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, these talks, held between British and Spanish officials in Madrid on May 30 and 31, were without commitment and without prejudice to the positions of either side. No decisions were taken, but both sides put forward suggestions about how progress might be made and these suggestions will now be studied in London and Madrid.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he would agree that Mr. Rovira, the Spanish Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, during a Press conference following these talks said, regarding overflying restrictions:
The problem of the decolonisation of Gibraltar should he discussed in the aggregate and the Spanish Government is absolutely not prepared to grant facilities which would only serve to consolidate a British colonial presence on Spanish soil.As the British representative at the United Nations rightly said in December—
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD)My Lords. may I intervene? It is fair that the noble Lord should make one quotation, but when he comes to a second he would appear to be entering on a small speech. I would hope that he would pursue the habit of this House of putting a question.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, I am going to put a question. I want to put it in its right perspective. The United 485 Nations delegate said that the interests and wishes of the Gibraltarians remain paramount. Therefore, is it not morally indefensible for Spain to jeopardise flight safety for political purposes? What do Her Majesty's Government propose to do about that?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think that there are two points here on which we can all agree. First, the basic position of Her Majesty's Government, like that of its predecessors, is founded on the 1969 Gibraltar Constitution Order. If I may quote once:
Her Majesty's Government will never enter into arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar would pass under the sovereignty of another State against their freely and democratically expressed wishes.That is firmly and definitely our position, and it has been reaffirmed every time we have had occasion to talk to our friends in Spain.On the second point, we agree very much that talks should proceed on the practical means of improving communications between Gibraltar and the mainland. We see no reason at all why these should be held up or inhibited in the interests of some larger policy such as the one that the noble Lord described.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware, in the light of what he has said about the Government's position on Gibraltar, the 1969 Constitution Order, and so on, that I think the vast majority on both sides of the House would hope to see some settlement emerging from any talks that arise between Her Majesty's Government and the Spanish Government?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I very much welcome the noble Lord's intervention on that point. We follow faithfully on the consensus Motion in the United Nations last December, and we have loyally acted in accordance with it. We have engaged in talks with a view to reaching agreement with Spain, as the noble Lord has just indicated.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, as a matter of interest, could my noble friend inform me whether it is true that Gibraltar was acquired by the United Kingdom by military force, and whether that is consistent with the Government's general policy in the Middle East?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSWell, my Lords, this takes us back a few years. One is aware of course that by the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713—and I stand to be corrected by my noble friend—the Rock was ceded to this country. On the whole, the inhabitants of the Rock have been perfectly satisfied with the new arrangements.
§ EARL COWLEYMy Lords, does the noble Lord realise that in fact the Spanish Government refuse to accede to a communications agreement because they say that there is no such provision under the Treaty of Utrecht?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, frankly, I was not aware of that. On the other hand, more seriously, it is of great importance that agreement should be reached on these practical points relating to air safety. I do not think that this has anything to do with a very long quarrel about the ownership of the Rock. It is a matter of practical safety, and we would hope to come to some arrangement also on the membership of Spain in EuroControl, which covers a larger question of safety. I should hope that the consensus in this House is that no matter what differences there may be about sovereignty there is a practical question to be solved as between friends namely, to improve communications and relations between the Gibraltarians and their Spanish neighbours and, above all, to secure the maximum possible air safety.
§ LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURYMy Lords, without wishing to oversimplify this very difficult problem, have the Government considered the possibility of sharing the airport in No-man's Land? It is done in Basle in Switzerland between the Swiss and the French and it works extremely well. It would be a face-saver for both sides. Has this possibility been looked at?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I should have to take that suggestion under advisement.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, since communications between Gibraltar and Spain are constantly being maintained through Tangier what is the advantage to either Spain or Gibraltar in perpetuating this absurdity?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, there is of course no advantage in perpetuating this absurdity.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I agree that Gibraltar should stay as it is at the present time, but would he mind giving me a definition of what is meant by "ceded"?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I take it that in the Treaty of 1713 the then Spanish Government handed over Gibraltar—or, as we prefer to call it, "the Rock" to the British Government. "Ceding" is to give from one to another.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, is not the whole issue of Gibraltar a very delicate issue for us? We should not take up a rather arrogant attitude about the whole matter. I was dealing with it at the end of 1967 and 1968 when I was at the United Nations, and there is no need for us to behave as if we had a God given right to it.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can assure my noble friend that we take no arrogant attitude to this question. This is a matter of what the Gibraltarians want. So far, they have said very definitely indeed that they want to stay as they are. So long as they do, it is our duty to support them.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, the Minister rightly said that there are practical considerations involved. He said also that we must only act in the way the Gibraltarians want us to act; and as the Spanish want us only to discuss sovereignty, which we cannot discuss and will not discuss, will the Minister consider a further point? It is related to what I said earlier with a view to giving British Airways the flexibility they need. that is with regard to the utilisation of Trident 2 and Trident 3 aircraft, and the possible introduction of TriStar, with a view also to improving the payload at Gibraltar. Would Her Majesty's Government consider putting in hand a feasibility study the cost/benefit analysis for extending the runway, which would be a contributory factor towards alleviating the take-off and landing problems at Gibraltar?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I feel I must intervene. That I think goes very 488 wide of the original Question and I do not think my noble friend should answer it. If the noble Lord wishes to put a Question of that sort I think he should put it on the Order Paper.