Lords Sitting of 31 July 1974

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock: THE LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of London.
The Earl of Inchcape—Took the Oath.

THE CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS
11.6 a.m.
Consideration of the letter from Sir David Stephens, K.C.B., C.V.O., announcing his retirement from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD): My Lords, shortly after the Whitsun Recess the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor read to the House the letter in which Sir David Stephens announced his intention of retiring from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments before the House rose for the Summer Recess. I then said that your Lordships would wish in due course to pay tribute to the service of Sir David to this House. That time has now arrived and I know that the House will join me in expressing to Sir David the sense of the Motion which I now formally move:
That this House has received with severe regret the announcement of the retirement of Sir David Stephens, K.C.B., C.V.O., from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments and thinks it right to record the just sense which it entertains of the zeal, ability, diligence, and integrity with which the said Sir David Stephens executed the important duties of his office.
Parliament is a mirror of our democracy. Some Parliaments are known for their disorders and turbulence. Fortunately, ours, particularly your Lordships' House, conducts its affairs within established procedures. We Peers, as Members of a self-regulating House, may claim credit for all this, but I believe great credit rests with our Clerks who are the guardians of our procedures and our traditions. Therefore, in paying tribute to Sir David I should like—and I know that this would be his wish—to pay tribute also to all those, in whatever capacity, who
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have worked under him in the service of our House.
Sir David's record of public service is long and varied and one of which he can be proud. Before he entered the public service he had two years as a Laming Travelling Fellow. It is said that "travel broadens the mind" and I am sure that not only Sir David but also the public service benefited from this period of his life as a Travelling Fellow. Perhaps for the Record I should make it clear that a Travelling Fellow is not to be confused with a "fellow traveller". Not even his worst enemy (I do not believe he has one) would ever accuse Sir David of being a "fellow traveller".
Sir David joined the Parliament Office nearly forty years ago, in 1935. But after three and a half years he decided to widen his experience and he left the office, first to be a member of the Runciman Mission to Czechoslovakia in 1938, and then to join the Treasury. His connection with Parliament was not by any means lost during his years away from the House. For example, between 1947 and 1949 he was Principal Private Secretary to the Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons—that great Parliamentary figure, the late Lord Morrison of Lambeth. I can think of no better tutor in the art of Parliamentary government than Herbert Morrison. No doubt Sir David himself would pay testimony to the value of that period of his working life. After a further spell in the Treasury, Sir David became Secretary for Appointments to two successive Prime Ministers—Sir Anthony Eden, now the noble Earl, Lord Avon, and Mr. Harold Macmillan. In this capacity no doubt Sir David had much to do with the presence in this House of a number of noble Lords, and not least the right reverend Prelates and—dare I say?—even one, if not two, of the most reverend Primates.
In 1961 Sir David returned to your Lordships' House as Reading Clerk, a post which he held for two years until in 1963 he succeeded Sir Victor Goodman, who retired suddenly on grounds of ill health, as Clerk of the Parliaments. Sir David has held this office for the long period of nearly eleven years. These have been years of significance to the House. I am sure that all Members of the House will agree that we have been

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ably served by Sir David during this time, particularly on the administrative front where he could draw on his wide experience of the Civil Service and public life. I believe it is important that our Clerks should not become too shut off from the outside world, and the House has benefited from having as its Clerk over the past eleven years a man with such broad vision as Sir David.
The past eleven years has been a period of considerable change in your Lordships' House. We have only to cast our minds back to 1963, when Sir David was appointed, to remember the long debates on the London Government Bill when we thought that those occasions were something unique in the life of the House. Since then, very late Sittings have become almost common place, and we remember in particular the Industrial Relations Bill and the European Communities Bill. In Sir David's span of office the House has changed considerably. It has grown, for instance, in numbers from an average daily attendance of about 150 to an average to-day of 250. That is only one index of the increased activity of the House. The Parliament Office has grown and the services which the Clerks provide to the House have greatly expanded to meet the increased activity of the House.
On the procedural front there have been notable changes. The Companion to the Standing Orders was revised in 1972 under Sir David's guidance and, during one particular Session, the Procedure Committee, at which the Clerk of the Parliaments is our valued adviser, met on no fewer than ten occasions. Public Bills have been referred to Committees off the Floor of the House and the use of Select Committees has been reactivated, culminating in the establishment of the new European Communities Committee with numerous Sub-Committees requiring a full complement of staff to serve them. Over all of these changes, both procedural and administrative, Sir David has provided invaluable guidance to the House—and, my Lords, I stress that to the House. Sir David has upheld throughout his period of office the tradition that the Clerks' advice is open to every Member of the House—not just to me or my colleagues on this Government Front Bench, and to noble Lords
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on the Front Bench opposite, but to every noble Lord in this House.
Sir David has now decided that it is time for him to make way for a successor, and I know that many of his friends in all quarters will miss him. David can take his leave of this House in the sure knowledge of a task well done, in the knowledge that his colleagues who follow will uphold the dignity of his high office. We are aware, too, that in paying tribute to him we should think especially of his wife who has been a magnificent support to him. With our best wishes for the future, we ask them to come back whenever they wish and they will then always receive the warmest of welcomes. My Lords, I beg to move this Resolution.
Moved to resolve, That this House has received with sincere regret the anouncement of the retirement of Sir David Stephens, K.C.B., C.V.O., from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments and thinks it right to record the just sense which it entertains of the zeal, ability, diligence and integrity with which the said Sir David Stephens executed the important duties of his office.—(Lord Shepherd.)
11.16 a.m.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, from these Benches I should like to endorse, and to do so most warmly, that very fitting and well deserved tribute which has been paid by the noble Lord the Leader of the House to Sir David Stephens. All parts of the House are united in our regard and affection for Sir David Stephens as Clerk of the Parliaments for eleven years, and as Reading Clerk for three years before that. We have greatly appreciated his courtesy, his helpfulness and his wise advice, to which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has rightly referred in the tribute to which we have just listened. We might also reflect that advice which is wise stems from experience and from the quality of mind of the man who gives it. Sir David has also shown exemplary patience—listening to all our speeches over those fourteen years: good, bad, and many indifferent, remaining imperturbable throughout, never looking bored or even surprised. We ought to remember that at the Table we see only the public side of the work of the Clerk of the Parliaments. But he is also now the chief executive of a con-

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siderable staff. We do not always appreciate how much the Clerk has to do by way of administration and personnel management behind the scenes. It is now an even more demanding and skilled job than it has been in the past.
My Lords, we shall miss Sir David Stephens. We shall miss particularly his courtesy and his kindness, and we wish him and Lady Stephens well in their retirement. I am sure I speak on behalf of all Peers when I say that I count it as a privilege to have known him, and to have been in the House during the time he has guided us so ably as our Clerk.
11.18 a.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Byers unfortunately cannot be present with us this morning and he has asked me to say a few words about Sir David Stephens on behalf of noble Lords who sit on these Benches.
The first thing I should like to say is that we associate ourselves entirely with the speech of the noble Lord the Leader of the House, and with the words of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition. I can go back to the legendary days when Lord Badeley was Clerk of the Parliaments, and I can say that Sir David Stephens has kept his place very well with such great figures and has stood up excellently to the great work which they have done. When I have had dealings with Sir David upon all sorts of matters I have found that he has been delightfully helpful, friendly and not at all rigid and fixed in his interpretation of the various problems which arose. Therefore I join with the other noble Lords who have spoken in conveying to Sir David and Lady Stephens our best wishes for a very happy retirement. I think that he will certainly be able to look back and feel that he has accomplished a very difficult and delicate job extremely well.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, on behalf of the Lords Spiritual may I join in the tributes to Sir David Stephens, tributes which we are all making with sadness at his going and with deep gratitude for what he has given to this House, to Parliament, and to all of us as individuals, too. He has served with great dignity, great efficiency and great personal kindness through the years of his office. As the noble Lord the Leader of the
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House remarked, there was a time in which the Clerk of the Parliaments held the post of adviser to the Prime Minister concerning the appointment of Bishops by the Crown. Thus we on these Benches have felt all along that he must know a very great deal about us, and we trust that he watches us and listens to us not altogether with feelings of disappointment.
Be that as it may, we join in the feeling of pride in the House of Lords as an institution, and it is the great service given by Sir David that has indeed helped to enhance the reputation of this House as an institution, while at the same time he has shown such great kindness and helpfulness to every single one of us as an individual who has sought his help and counsel. We all wish him and Lady Stephens great happiness in their years of retirement.
LORD CLITHEROE: My Lords, may I, as a Back-Bencher, add a tribute from the Back Benches to Sir David for all the kindness and courtesy which he has shown to us? I have been here during all the years that he has served this House, and never once has he done anything but shown a great deal of kindness and courtesy to all of us.
LORD MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, I am sure my colleagues on the Cross-Benches who have so many different opinions about everything would wish the Cross-Benches to be associated with the tributes paid to Sir David this morning.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will agree it is proper that from the Back Benches I should say a word or two more in a meed of praise to Sir David for his invariable accessibility, for his infinite kindness and patience in dealing with the problems which people like myself, Life Peers, have put to him and on which we have had to seek his advice over the years. We wish him well and thank him again.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD ELWYN-JONES): My Lords, as an incumbent of the Woolsack I have particular reasons for gratitude to Sir David Stephens for his guidance and help during the, as yet, brief period when I have had the honour of presiding over your Lordships' House. The Scriptures tell us that there is no leaping from Delilah's lap into Abraham's bosom. That may well be so,

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but no less difficult is the transition from Speaker to Minister and Minister to Speaker, and from the Woolsack via the public dressing room to the right of the Throne to the Government Bench, which I understand the Lord Chancellor has done ever since the days of Cardinal Wolsey, and is an exercise that I have lamentably failed effectively to perform on one unhappy occasion!
I have been relieved to be told by both the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, and the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne—who, incidentally, particularly asked me to convey his good wishes to-day to Sir David during his unavoidable absence—that they, too, have found the Woolsack a somewhat unsafe seat. Whether that was the experience of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, he has not communicated that information to me. but I am sure that he, too, would wish to convey his good wishes to Sir David. The fact that my own sins of omission and commission have of late become a little less frequent, is due entirely to the assistance I have had from Sir David and to the fact that I in turn have kept an eye on his watchful eye.
It has become apparent to me that the Clerk of the Parliaments here plays a far more active part in the public proceedings of the House than his equivalent in another place. That is because of the obvious determination of your Lordships that the Lord Chancellor as Speaker should have as little power in this House as possible. The task of the Clerk here calls for tact and infinite alertness. I am quite sure that the noble Lord who dreamed he was making a speech in your Lordships' House, and when he woke up he found that he was, is a purely apocryphal character. But, certainly, as the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, intimated, the temptation for a catnap must be great but has to be resisted by the Clerk.
As noble Lords from all sides of the House have so appropriately stated, Sir David Stephens has rendered immense service to the House and to Parliament; and, if I may say so, not least in his role as adviser to other Parliaments during the many international conferences that he has attended. The House could not have had a more devoted servant
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and to me, as I know to all Members of the House who have sought his aid, he has been a ready counsellor and friend. I should like to express my own gratitude to him and to wish well to Sir David and his family.
On Question, Resolution agreed to, nemine dissentiente.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that the Lord Chancellor do communicate this Resolution to Sir David Stephens.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty laying before Her Majesty a copy of the letter of the said Sir David Stephens, K.C.B., C.V.O., and likewise of the Resolution of this House, and recommending the said Sir David Stephens to Her Majesty's Royal Grace and Bounty.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to nemine dissentiente: the said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.
Then, the Lord Chancellor having informed the House on June 11 last that Her Majesty had, by Letters Patent, appointed Peter Gordon Henderson, Esquire, to the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments, in the place of Sir David Stephens, K.C.B., C.V.O., the Letters Patent were read. The said Peter Gordon Henderson, Esquire, made the prescribed declaration (which declaration is set down in the Roll among the oaths of the great officers) in terms as follows:
"I, Peter Gordon Henderson, do declare that I will be true and faithful and troth I will bear to Our Sovereign Lady the Queen and to Her Heirs and Successors. I will nothing know that shall be prejudicial to Her Highness Her Crown Estate and Dignity Royal, but that I will resist it to my power and with all speed I will advertise Her Grace thereof, or at the least some of Her Counsel in such wise as the same may come to Her knowledge. I will also well and truly serve Her Highness in the Office of Clerk of Her Parliaments making true Entries and Records of the things done and passed in the same. I will keep secret all such matters as shall be treated in Her said Parliaments and not disclose the same before they shall be published, but to such as it ought to be disclosed unto, and generally I will well and truly do and execute all things belonging

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to me to be done appertaining to the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments."
After which he took his seat at the Table.

CLERK ASSISTANT OF THE PARLIAMENTS
11.32 a.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move the first of the two Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper. In accordance with the Statement made by the Leader of the House on June 11, I have appointed Mr. John Egerton Grey to be Clerk Assistant in place of Mr. Peter Gordon Henderson, appointed Clerk of the Parliaments. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do approve the appointment by the Lord Chancellor, pursuant to the Clerk of the Parliaments Act 1824, of John Egerton Grey, Esquire, to be Clerk Assistant of the House in place of Peter Gordon Henderson, Esquire, appointed Clerk of the Parliaments.— (The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, nemine dissentiente.

READING CLERK AND CLERK OF OUTDOOR COMMITTEES
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move the second of the two Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper. In accordance with the Statement made by the Leader of the House on June 11, I have appointed Mr. John Christopher Sainty to be Reading Clerk and Clerk of Outdoor Committees in place of Mr. John Egerton Grey, appointed Clerk Assistant of the Parliaments. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do approve the appointment by the Lord Chancellor, pursuant to the Clerk of the Parliaments Act 1824, of John Christopher Sainty, Esquire, as Reading Clerk and Clerk of Outdoor Committees of the House in the place of John Egerton Grey, Esquire, appointed Clerk Assistant.—(The Lord Chancellor)
On Question, Motion agreed to, nemine dissentiente.

RENT BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to with Amendments.
TRADE UNION AND LABOUR RELATIONS BILL
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

FURNISHED HOUSES: REPOSSESSION RIGHTS
11.25 a.m.
LORD THOMAS: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the provisions of the Rent Bill would make it impossible for those whose work requires them to live abroad to recover possession of their houses which they have let furnished to tenants in their absence.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, no. The provisions of the Bill enable anyone wishing to let his own home during his temporary absence, whether abroad or not, to do so while retaining an absolute right to repossess it—subject of course to the terms of the lease—when he needs it again to live in himself. The Bill also enables people who have already let their homes furnished to secure their rights to recover possession when they need it.
LORD THOMAS: My Lords, I am very much obliged and thank the Leader of the House for that reassuring news, which will bring comfort to a large number of people who have to travel overseas.

E.E.C.: UNITED KINGDOM MEMBERSHIP
LORD CHELWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what further progress has been made with their renegotiation of the terms on which the United Kingdom joined the European Community; which aspects of this question are now regarded as fundamental; whether recent developments confirm that amendments to the Treaties will not be involved; and by what date it is the present intention to complete the necessary discussions and announce their outcome.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GOROWNY-ROBERTS): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have been pursuing their renegotiation objectives on several fronts in the appropriate Council meetings. The issues covered were clearly set out in my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary's statements to the Council of Ministers on April 1 and June 4, copies of which are available to noble Lords in the Library. My right honourable friend told the Council on June 4 that in Her Majesty's Government's judgment the proposals put forward, if accepted, would not require changes in the Treaties. My right honourable friend added that the Government will continue negotiations on that basis, though of course our reserve on Treaty amendments continues to stand. It is still too early to set a precise target date for the completion of renegotiation.
LORD CHELWOOD: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply to my Question, which seems to beg more than it answers, may I put one straight question to him. Why has collective Cabinet responsibility now been abandoned where this vital national question is concerned, with key Ministers not only openly opposing but actually sabotaging —and I mean that—Her Majesty's Government's declared official policy towards the European Community? Is not—
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, if I may intervene, it is not the practice in your Lordships' House to put supplementary questions by reading them. Would the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, be kind enough to put this question in the normal, customary way?
LORD CHELWOOD: My Lords, I apologise most sincerely. If I may just complete my supplementary question, is not the inevitable result of the opposition of key Ministers to the official policy of Her Majesty's Government the enfeeblement of the Community as a whole, and the creation of quite unnecessary uncertainty?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I do not accept the implications of the first part of the noble Lord's question. As to the alleged enfeeblement of the Community, we are absolutely convinced that the acceptance of the major British proposals will not only be conducive to the greater prosperity of this country, but to the greater viability of the Community itself.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, would not the Government now admit that there was really no necessity to embark on any formal negotiations for modifying the terms of the Treaty of Accession, but simply to make use for this purpose of the existing machinery of the Community?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, progress already made on various aspects of renegotiation would seem to indicate that the noble Lord's view is not the correct one. We shall continue with renegotiation until we are in a position to report to the country on the results, and to seek the country's approval, or otherwise, for them.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the noble Lord said he did not know when these negotiations would be concluded. Is he aware that a statement of the Foreign Secretary was leaked in a private, meeting of the Parliamentary Party, saying there was no prospect whatever of there being any conclusion for another twelve months? Is this correct or not? If so, is it because negotiation is difficult, or because it is better for the Labour Party?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I do not think a leak was actually

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necessary in this case. My right honourable friend, when addressing a public meeting in London on July 2, indicated that he would soon need to indicate a general period within which negotiation should reasonably be expected to be completed and the position put to the country. He naturally declined to indicate what that period might be, but there has been some speculation that it might be somewhere around twelve months.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, would it not be true to say that noble Lords who have just spoken from the other side have not accepted the fact that this is another, different Government from the previous Government. Would it not be true to say that noble Lords on the other side are always saying that renegotiations by the people who are in Brussels are going on the whole time? Therefore their objections to the renegotiations of this Government seem to me to be utterly hollow.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, yes indeed. Despite the break which is inevitable during the August holiday, detailed discussions are proceeding and we look forward to intensive renegotiation beginning about the middle of September.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, I regret to put this question when we are about to part from this House for some time. I prefer that we should leave with a measure of harmony. May I ask whether it is true that Members of your Lordships' House—a majority on the Opposition side and a minority on this side—have an obsession with entry into the Common Market in spite of all the difficulties that have accrued since the Treaty of Accession? This obsession has done more to divide this country, and to create disunity than any other piece of legislation or policy.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, suffice it to say that that is certainly one point of view.
LORD SAINT OSWALD: My Lords, the question I would put to the Government in all friendliness is prompted, or at least reinforced, by certain words of the noble Lord the Leader of the House a few minutes ago when he used the phrase, "Parliament is the mirror of democracy". To what extent do the Gov-
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ernment realise how Labour Party colleagues have been missed in the European Parliament by their own potential colleagues who sit there—Conservatives, Liberals and Independents; whether they have any kind of measure of the additional influence that those Labour Members of Parliament would have brought to bear within the British presence in that Parliament, and whether they realise the extent to which other member countries and the Socialist groups from those countries are bewildered by the fact that out of the three main institutions of the Community—the Council of Ministers, the Commission and the Parliament—the present Government have chosen to neglect the Parliament?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am very pleased to take full note of what the noble Lord has just said.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, obsessed or not, may I thank the noble Lord who speaks for the Government on these questions for continuing to say nothing in such a friendly way, and may I ask him whether Her Majesty's Government will, at the end of renegotiation, issue a White Paper saying whether the Government approve or disapprove of the terms that have been renegotiated?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the noble Lord's assumptions are broadly correct. A White Paper, or some form of official publication, will contain the finalised conclusions with an indication of what the Government of the day think of them.
BARONESS ELLES: My Lords, will the Government remember that we are still full members of the Community while the renegotiations are going on, and will they undertake to observe all the terms of the treaties and take a positive role in the policies being pursued in the European Communities, and not upset every other Member State in the process of these so-called renegotiations?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I think it is fairly generally agreed that despite our reservations about the terms negotiated by the previous Administration we have genuinely and full-heartedly co-operated with the ongoing business of the Community. Those accusations, when I think it is accepted that we have acted in full bona fides, are not

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helpful to the present position. Regarding the other point raised by the noble Baroness, I can assure her that the policy of co-operation within our membership pending the results of renegotiation will be faithfully followed.
EARL COWLEY: My Lords, will not the noble Lord agree that when the Conservative Party was in power it recognised that membership of the Community was a continual process of negotiation, but that the difference between the two Parties is that we do not threaten to pull this country out if we do not get what we want?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, both sides are agreed that negotiation or renegotiation is inevitable and right, so I do not see how much divides us on this issue. If we on our side indicate rather strongly how deeply we are concerned on the point of renegotiation, perhaps that is the difference between us.
LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRAN: My Lords, arising out of the reply of the noble Lord the Minister to the first question put to him by the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, may I ask him whether he is in a position to deny the Press reports that, because of the negotiations now being pursued by the Government, no full applications or complete applications for benefits from the Regional Development Fund are being made by the Government, with consequential loss to United Kingdom institutions or bodies?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I would not care to comment on Press reports, but on the very important question of the Regional Development Fund I should like to make it absolutely clear that through no fault of this country those negotiations have not made the progress that one would have expected them to make.
LORD HALE: My Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind that a former Leader of this House helped to secure the passing of the Act embodying union in the E.E.C., with the promise of large funds from the Regional Development Fund which he described as being his reply to my plea on behalf of the old 'uns of England; would he note the old 'uns continued interest in this matter, and further, is the European development financial year 1973 still running?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the position in regard to the Regional Development Fund is that wholly inadequate progress has been made, for the reasons I have just given. I should add another reason, in fairness, that in various Member States of the Community there have been internal difficulties which have somewhat delayed these negotiations. As to the need for a strong and viable development fund on the lines which my noble friend has described, we on this side of the House regard this as fundamental to any significant membership of the Community.
LORD BERNSTEIN: My Lords, could the noble Lord the Leader of the House, before any further questions are put on this matter, advise that the reading of Hansard during the debate on the E.E.C. should be prescribed reading for every Member of your Lordships' House?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the noble Lord has drawn my attention to the question that is before the House at the moment and, looking at the time, I wonder whether this might be the right moment to proceed to the next Question.

E.E.C.: JAMAICA MEETING
11.48 a.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in the discussions between E.E.C. Foreign Ministers and representatives of fifty developing countries regarding conditions of trade and what part the United Kingdom is taking in these negotiations.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister for Overseas Development is making a Statement in another place this morning; and with the permission of your Lordships' House I shall then repeat it.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I thank the Minister. I will reserve what I have to say until that Statement is made.

GOVERNMENT STATEMENTS
BARONESS LLEWELYN DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, with the leave of the House, as has just been stated, my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts will be making two Statements at a convenient moment after 12 o'clock, the first on Cyprus and the second on the Protocol 22 meeting in Kingston, Jamaica.
My Lords, may we on this side of the House wish noble Lords in all parts of the House a happy, peaceful and well-earned holiday.

RESERVOIRS BILL [H.L.]
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make further provision against escapes of water from large reservoirs or from lakes or lochs artificially created or enlarged. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Garnsworthy.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution), Bill read 3a, and passed.

ROAD TRAFFIC BILL [H.L.]
11.50 a.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ROAD TRAFFIC BILL [H.L.]

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Page and line references are to Bill 79 as first printed for the Commons].
  [Nos. 1 to 34]
  Clause 5, page 9, line 39, leave out ' and used '.
  Clause 5, page 9, line 43, leave out from ' person to end of line 45 and insert ' in whose name the vehicle was at that time registered under the Vehicles (Excise) Act 1971.
  Page 10, line 3, leave out from 'person' to end of line and insert ' in whose name a vehicle was so registered '.
  Page 10, line 5, leave out ' and used '.
  Page 10, line 6, leave out ' and used '.
  Clause 6, page 11, line 7, at end insert—
  ' (4) The power to give a traffic direction for the purposes of a traffic survey shall be to exercised as not to cause any unreasonable delay to a person who indicates that he is unwilling to furnish any information for the purposes of the survey.'
  Clause 7, line 15, leave out 'highway, or' and insert ' road, or
  (aa) on any land which is situated between two carriageways of an urban road and which is not a footway, or '.
  Clause 7, line 16, leave out 'highway' and insert ' road '.
  Page 12, leave out line 7 and insert 'road may by order specifying that road '.
  Page 12, line 9, leave out from 'it' to end of line 13, and insert
  ' or to any part of it specified in the order, either at ail times or during periods so specified.
  (5A) In England and Wales a local authority within the meaning of section 36A of this Act, may institute procedings for an offence under this section committed with respect to a road in their area '.
  Page 12, line 37, leave out 'highway' "means a highway' and insert' road" mean a road'.
  Clause 10, leave out Clause 10.
  After Clause 12 insert new clause:
  Fitting and sale of defective or unsuitable vehicle parts
  '(1) After section 60 of the 1972 Act there shall be inserted the following section—
  60A.—(1) If any person—

  (a) fits a vehicle part to a vehicle, or

  (b) causes or permits a vehicle part to be fitted to a vehicle, in such circumstances that, by reason of that part being fitted to the vehicle, the use of the vehicle on a road would constitute a contravention of or failure to comply with any of the construction and use requirements, he shall be guilty of an offence.

  (2) A person shall not be convicted of an offence under subsection (1) above if he proves—

  (a) that the vehicle to which the part was to be exported from Great Britain; or

  (b) that he had reasonable cause to believe that that vehicle would not be

  2319
  used on a road in Great Britain or would not be so used until it had been put into a condition in which its use would not constitute a contravention of or failure to comply with any of the construction and use requirements.

  (3) If any person who—

  (a) sells or supplies or offers to sell or supply a vehicle part, or

  (b) causes or permits a vehicle part to be sold, supplied, or offered for sale or supply, has reasonable cause to believe that the part is to be fitted to a motor vehicle, or to a vehicle of a particular class, or to a particular vehicle, he shall be guilty of an offence if that part could not be fitted to a motor vehicle or, as the case may require, to a vehicle of that class or, of a class to which the particular vehicle belongs, except in such circumstances as are mentioned in subsection (1) above.

  (4) A person shall not be convicted of an offence under subsection (3) above in respect of the sale, supply or offer of a vehicle part if he proves—

  (a) that the part was sold, supplied or offered, as the case may be, for export from Great Britain; or

  (b) that he had reasonable cause to believe that it would not be fitted to a vehicle used on a road in Great Britain or would not be so fitted until it had been put into such a condition that it could be fitted otherwise than in such circumstances as are mentioned in subsection (1) above.

  "60A(1)

  Fitting of defective or unsuitable vehicle parts

  Summarily £200.

  60A(3)

  Selling defective or unsuitable vehicle parts

  Summarily £200.

  60A(6)

  Obstructing examiner testing vehicles to ascertain whether defective or unsuitable part has been fitted, etc

  Summarily £100."

  Clause 14, page 21, line 35, after 'evidence' insert ' or, in Scotland, sufficient evidence '.
  Clause 16, leave out Clause 16.
  Clause 17, leave out Clause 17.
  Clause 18, leave out Clause 18.
  Clause 19, leave out Clause 19.
  Clause 21, leave out Clause 21.
  Clause 22, page 30, line 10, at end insert—
  ' (4A) A road hump constructed in a highway in accordance with this section shall be removed not later than the expiry of the period of one year beginning with the day on which its construction began '.
  Page 31, line 5, leave out ' Where a road hump is constructed ' and insert ' If and so long as a road hump is constructed and maintained '.
  Clause 28, page 33, line 27, leave out subsection (2).
  Clause 29, page 34, line 14, leave out subsection (6).
  Schedule 3, page 47, line 5, at end insert—
  ' (4) At the end of the said section 101 there shall be added the following subsection—
  (5) An authorised examiner may at any reasonable hour enter premises where, in the course of a business, vehicle parts are fitted to vehicles or sold, supplied or offered for sale and test and inspect any vehicle or vehicle part found on those premises for the purpose of ascertaining whether—

  (a) a vehicle part has been fitted to the vehicle in such circumstances as are mentioned in subsection (1) above, or

  (b) the vehicle part could not be sold or supplied for fitting to a vehicle used on roads in Great Britain without the commission of an offence under subsection (3) above, and for the purpose of testing a motor vehicle and any trailer drawn by it the authorised examiner may drive it and for the purpose of testing a trailer may draw it with a motor vehicle.

  (6) Any person who obstructs an authorised examiner acting under subsection (5) above shall be guilty of an offence.
  (7) In subsections (5) and (6) above ' authorised examiner ' means a person who may act as an authorised examiner for the purposes of section 53 of this Act; and any such person, other than a constable in uniform, shall produce his authority to act for the purpose of subsection (5) above if required to do so.
  (8) Nothing in this section shall affect the validity of a contract or of any rights arising under a contract.
  (2) In Part I of Schedule 4 to the 1972 Act (prosecution and punishment of offences) after the entry relating to section 60(3) there shall be inserted the following entries:—
  "(8) Nothing in the provisions of sections 15(5) and 31(1) of the Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland) Act 1954 (complaint and previous complaint and previous convictions) shall affect the power of the court under subsection (4A) of this section to take into consideration a previous conviction or disqualification endorsed on the licence of the accused." '.
  Schedule 5, page 51, line 16, column 4, leave out ' £50 ' and insert ' £20 '.
  Schedule 5, page 51, line 18, column 5, leave out ' £50 ' and insert ' £20 '.
  page 52, line 4, column 4, leave out '£100' and insert '£50'.
  page 52, line 6, column 5, leave out '£100" and insert '£50'.
  page 70, line 20, at end insert ' or 4 months imprisonment '.
  Schedule 6, page 72, line 4, at end insert—
  The Airports Authority Act 1965
  2A. In section 12 of the Airports Authority Act 1965 (control of road traffic within British Airports Authority aerodromes) in subsection (3) (order may exempt particular roads from application of road traffic enactments) for the

  2321
  words from "particular roads" to the end of the subsection there shall be substituted the words "such roads or lengths of roads to which the public does not have access as the Authority may for the time being identify as being so exempted by means of a sign of a type or character specified in the order".'.
  page 73, line 25, at end insert—
  '11A. In section 36 A of that Act the following subsections shall be inserted after subsection (3):—
  "(3A) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide that, in relation to vehicles of such classes as may be specified in the regulations, subsection (1) above shall not apply subject to such conditions as may be so specified.
  (3B) In England and Wales a local authority may institute proceedings for an offence under this section committed with respect to the verge of a road, land or a footway in their area; and in this section "local authority" means the council of a county, district or London borough, the Greater London Council or the Common Council of the City of London." '
  page 73, line 26, leave out from beginning to first ' the ' in line 27 and insert—
  '(I) In section 53 of that Act (testing of condition of vehicles on roads) in subsection (1) (authorised examiners may test motor vehicles to ascertain whether certain requirements are complied with) in paragraph (b) after the word "of" there shall be inserted the word "noise".
  (2) In subsection (2) of that section (persons who may act as authorised examiners) '.
  page 74, line 24, at end insert—
  '18A. In section 168(2) of the Act (information to be given as to identity of driver, etc.) in paragraph (a) after the word "police" there shall be inserted the words "or, in the case of an offence under section 36A or section 36B of this Act, by or on behalf of a local authority within the meaning of the said section 36A".'
  In the Title, line 2, leave out ' operators' licences and drivers' hours ' and insert ' and operators' licences '.
  LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 34. It may be for the convenience of the House if I explain the effect of the Amendments as a whole which have been made to the Bill in another place, and then if any of your Lordships has any question on any particular Amendment I will endeavour to deal with it. Perhaps then at the end we can take the Amendments, if it be the wish of your Lordships, en bloc.
  At the conclusion of the Report stage, before this Bill went to another place, the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stour-
  2322
  ton, expressed the not too confident hope that it would not have to be launched yet a third time. As a result of some hard work, and not a little give and take, last Friday, the Bill is before us again after an interval of little over a month. There are a number of changes, which have the general result of limiting the present measures to those matters on which there is a consensus. Many clauses which have been deleted will be regretted in one quarter or another. But their inclusion would have meant subjecting the Bill to more extended consideration in another place—with the real risk that it would not have completed its passage in the present Session.
  There have been sacrifices, but there have also been gains. I doubt whether your Lordships would have wished to consider again the proposal to introduce owner-liability, and this, like other measures in the Bill, is something which those responsible for tackling road traffic and attendant problems are now awaiting with some impatience. Nor should the sacrifices be exaggerated. The important matters which we shall be leaving aside will be candidates for legislation in the next Session, subject in some cases to the progress of discussions with the interests concerned. And, if I may say so, it may be possible to tackle them in a clearer cut Parliamentary situation than we have at the present time.
  In view of the limited timetable, the Government and the Opposition were in agreement that there should not in this Bill be the provision on wearing of seat belts. Although this was debated at length in this House, culminating in a very close vote to delete it, and the Government had been anxious to provide an opportunity for debating it also in another place during the passage of this Bill, it was the view of the majority when this stage was reached last Friday that this subject must be left until it could be fully debated there. This does not represent any change in the Government's view that this is a highly desirable road safety measure.
  There was not the same unanimity about Clauses 17, 18 and 19, which dealt with bus licensing. The Government fully accept that a serious transport problem faces many rural communities, with real hardship to many. But the clauses which were inserted in this Bill, and which the

  2323
  Government have considered very carefully, met with some degree of objection from both sides of the industry; nor were they wholly acceptable to at least one local authority association, and the Government feel that it is essential to give the new local authorities so recently formed, time to concert their views.
  Meanwhile, there was no very solid basis of agreement on which to legislate about this very complex subject. I can assure your Lordships that the Government will press forward with their consultations, and will introduce any necessary legislative changes at the earliest opportunity. Clauses 16 and 21 were deleted from the Bill without opposition. There is no immediate prospect of a scheme for training young people under 21 to drive buses, so this enabling provision seemed premature. The corresponding provision for heavy goods vehicle drivers remains in the Bill, however. As regards tachographs, we have again a provision which was bound to be controversial, and which could not at this stage be regarded as urgent.
  The other deletion was Clause 10. I think the noble Lord, Lord Elton, recognised that this was not, as it stood, a workable piece of law; he was concerned to secure real progress in dealing with noisy vehicles, an aim which we would all endorse. His Amendment has caused the Government to review the means of enforcing vehicle noise limits. We have confirmed our earlier conclusion that periodic testing is of limited value, but that more spot checks of vehicles on the road would improve the present situation. A new paragraph in Schedule 6 extends the power for spot checks to all vehicles, and makes it available to the police as well as Government vehicle examiners. There is not yet a suitable method for testing petrol-engined vehicles, but when this is developed the power to use it in spot checks will be there. Although this is not what the noble Lord, Lord Elton, was proposing, I hope the House will welcome it as a definite advance.
  At Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich promised a provision to ban the fitting and sale of unsuitable parts. This was prompted by the "killer tyres" scandal last year; that is to say, the sale to car owners of tyres suitable only for farm carts. The clause
  2324
  was not drafted in time for the earlier proceedings in this House, but was accepted during the Committee stage in another place. Most of the remaining Amendments are improvements, corrections and clarifications of a minor nature. They include a series of Amendments to Clause 7 and Schedule 6 as a result of consultations with the Greater London Council about the ban on parking on pavements. New subsections have been inserted to confirm the intention of the traffic survey clause—that is to say Clause 6—and to limit to one year the duration of each road hump experiment, which is covered in Clause 22.
  I should like to draw attention to an Amendment to Schedule 5 which I think will go some way to meet the arguments so persuasively put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Janner, and the noble Baroness, Lady Macleod of Borve, in relation to the power of magistrates' courts to imprison for serious road traffic offences. In Committee in another place, the Government accepted an Amendment to preserve the power of magistrates' courts to imprison, for up to four months, for dangerous driving, driving while drunk, and driving with excess blood alcohol. As a consequence, the accused also retains the right to elect jury trial in the Crown Court for these offences. Magistrates' courts will retain, for these offences, the various powers depending on the availability of imprisonment, such as detention centre and attendance centre orders, community service, and the power to issue arrest warrants to secure the attendance of the accused at his trial.
  My honourable friend Mr. Lyon said in the other place that the Government regarded the retention of imprisonment on summary conviction for the three offences in question as an interim measure, and that he hoped that it could finally be removed when non-custodial alternatives—and especially community service—became more generally available. But in the meantime he accepted the argument that for these offences—the most serious road traffic offences with which magistrates' courts had to deal—there was a case for retaining the power to imprison on summary conviction, together with the consequential powers which went with it. I trust that that survey of what these Amendments amount to will satisfy your Lordships. My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree

  2325
  with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 34.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Garnsworthy.)
  12.2 p.m.
  LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for having explained the effect of these Amendments, and it certainly saves much time for the House if we deal with them en bloc. So far as the Amendments are concerned, we have to be grateful for small mercies, and at least Clause 15 has been allowed to remain in the Bill. I welcome Clause 15, because this is a very valuable training scheme for drivers of heavy goods vehicles. It is a scheme that was worked out in great detail with the union concerned, and I could never understand why it was omitted from the Bill when it was reintroduced by this Government. I am sorry to see the wholesale slaughter of Clauses 16 to 22 that has taken place. Clause 16 was only a permissive clause which allowed the introduction at a later date of a similar scheme for training public service vehicle drivers. I really thought it would have been advantageous to leave that in, knowing how difficult it is to get legislation when one wants it.
  I deeply regret the omission of Clauses 17, 18, and 19, which helped the rural bus service problem. It is a matter to which we gave a great deal of thought when we were in Government and we tried to improve it, because it is an urgent and important one. The proposals that we put forward when the Bill was in Committee in this House were very much more modest than anything we had in our original Bill. They seemed to fall in line very closely with what the Labour Party had advocated when they were in Opposition, and we were hopeful that this might have gone some way to help solve the problem of rural bus services. We now have to wait for another occasion, and another Bill will have to be launced—the third, as the noble Lord put it. I hope that it will be we who launch it from the other side of the House very shortly.
  12.7 p.m.
  LORD JANNER: My Lords, I first want to apologise to your Lordships for
  2326
  having attempted to intervene before. That was due to my lack of knowledge of the exact procedure in your Lordships' House. I hope you will regard that as being a satisfactory explanation. I want to make only a few comments and—what is perhaps sometimes unusual in this House—to thank the Government for having taken into consideration the proposals and suggestions that have been made in respect of the rights of magistrates in the course of the performance of their duties. While some of us would have wanted the Government to go further than they have done, it would be entirely wrong if we were not to state quite definitely, on behalf of ourselves, the magistrates, and the justices clerks, that we are grateful to the Government for having conceded the point in Amendment No. 29, which retains a certain amount of rights for the magistrates to enable them to carry out their duties.
  I am sure your Lordships will appreciate that this body, which gives very great voluntary service to the community, with dedication, has to retain certain powers to enable magistrates to carry their duties into proper effect. It would have been very tragic indeed if this Amendment had not been made. The Government in their wisdom decided that magistrates should be supported, in the sense that when they sentenced somebody there should be some effective way of doing so, so that their duties might be properly performed. As I said before, I wish to thank the Government on behalf of the magistrates, the justices of the peace, and the Members of both Houses, for having conceded this point.
  LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON: My Lords, I should like to add a few words of thanks to what my noble friend Lord Aberdare has said. The Parts of the Bill in which I was particularly interested have been dealt with more kindly by the Government in the other place than my noble friend's Parts. I do not unduly worry about the removal of Clause 21, because it was an optional clause anyhow, and people who wish to set this practice and gain experience will still be able to do so. I think that the atmosphere from not having it in an Act may make it easier for operators and unions to persuade people that this is not such an evil thing. As regards the other Amendments that the noble Lord moved,

  2327
  dealing with Parts in which I was interested, I think that they are all technical, and in many cases are improvements. I give my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy.
  12.9 p.m.
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I greatly regret the omission of the rural bus service clauses from this Bill, because they gave an opportunity of a new breakthrough in that field. I presume that the died in the wool conservatives in the trade unions have prompted turning them down. I was hoping that there would be a possibility for the part-time mini-bus owner, who does a few trips as a sideline to market gardening or something else, or even the housewife who turns out as a part-time driver of these buses, where there would be no question of the very high full-time wages of a driver, which I think is one of the reasons why this suggestion was turned down in another place. The lady drivers are very good. In my part of the world, a private bus company has folded up on the lady driver attaining the age of 80 and, I believe, not getting her licence renewed. If she can do that sort of thing, there are hundreds of thousands of other women in the country who can also do it, and they might eventually have provided a very good service if this proposal had not been killed by another place.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

CYPRUS
12.10 p.m.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, with the permission of the House, I should like to repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary. The Statement reads as follows:
"Yesterday evening at 10 p.m. I signed with the Foreign Ministers of Greece and Turkey the Declaration which we had negotiated during a period of six days. I am placing a copy of this Declaration and of the statement by the three Governments which accompanied it in the Library of the House.
"We met against a background of numerous allegations that the cease-
2328
fire was being violated and this did not improve the atmosphere during the period of negotiation. Nevertheless, I would like to pay tribute to the statesmanship of the Foreign Ministers of Greece and Turkey and their Governments which made this Declaration possible. I am glad to say that both Governments have welcomed the Declaration.
"Members of the House will want to study the Declaration and I will not go through it in detail to-day. Let me emphasise that the arrangements made under it are temporary. We must move on as soon as possible to better and more permanent arrangements.
"The Declaration is the best response which the guarantor powers could make to the request placed before them by Security Council Resolution 353.
"As regards the immediate steps to maintain security in Cyprus, we agreed that the areas controlled by opposing forces would not be extended; that all forces, regular and irregular, should desist from hostile activity and that a security zone should be established by representatives of Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom in consultation with the United Nations force.
"As regards the measures to bring a return of confidence to the two communities we agreed that National Guard forces should evacuate Turkish enclaves. In these enclaves the communities would continue to have their own security forces but the U.N. force would also help with protection and security. Detained military personnel and civilians will be exchanged or released under the International Red Cross.
"As regards the future we will be meeting again from the evening of August 8 to discuss the longer term constitutional issues. The representatives of the Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities will be invited to join us.
"That is a necessary incomplete summary of the main provisions of the Declaration. It is not a perfect document but Greece and Turkey have. I believe, been brought back from the brink of war and what we have done in Geneva will help to keep the peace and give everyone a chance of moving

2329
on to the second and more important phase of making a peace which will last and which will create the essential confidence among the communities which has been lacking.
"The immediate aim had to be to remove the risk of war, but our abiding concern is the welfare of the people of Cyprus. Cyprus will not flourish so long as it remains an armed camp. We must do our utmost to secure compliance with Resolution 353 of the Security Council in all its aspects, including its military provisions as well as the Resolution of the constitutional problems of Cyprus in such a manner as will command the confidence of all its peoples.
"I must say a word about the situation in the Island itself. There have been a considerable number of breaches of the ceasefire called for by the U.N. on July 22, but it is the intention of the Foreign Ministers and their Governments that these should now cease and that life should gradually return to normal.
"The withdrawal of United Kingdom citizens and other friendly nationals into the Sovereign base areas and the subsequent evacuation to Britain of those who wished to leave the Island have gone smoothly. The Royal Air Force has flown more than 9,000 people to Britain. I am sure the House will agree with me that in the wholly exceptional circumstances obtaining in Cyprus it would be right to depart from established practice and to make no charge against individual United Kingdom citizens for their evacuation.
"In addition to the two deaths to which I referred in my Statement of July 22, I must report with great regret that four British residents of the Kyrenia area were killed last week. I have assured their families of the sincere sympathy of the House.
"And finally I pay tribute to all those who have been involved during these anxious days in trying to keep the peace or to help individuals who have suffered from the hostilities. There will be difficult days ahead and much more work is yet to be done, but together we have made a start."
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
12.16 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, for having repeated the Statement. I am sure that everybody in the House would wish to be associated with the tributes that he has paid to those who have worked so hard in these last few days and weeks. Perhaps there is a moral to be drawn from what the Services have done over these past few weeks. I hope that that moral will not be lost on noble Lords opposite. Defence cuts must be looked at in terms of the national interest. So far so good, although until one has looked at the Declaration it is difficult to see how far it goes. But we should all like to congratulate the Foreign Secretary on the part which he has played in bringing this about and not least for the stamina which he has shown in achieving it. It must be a source of satisfaction to all of us.
There is just one aspect of this matter which gives me a little cause for concern. Islands are notoriously difficult problems, as we all know. At the moment we have achieved a precarious ceasefire which has averted something infinitely worse—a war between Greece and Turkey. But we have only really scratched the difficulties of the problem.
It is inconceivable that we can go back now to the situation which existed before the coup by the National Guards officers. Inevitably it will be some time before some sort of solution emerges. I do not know what the Government have in mind. In the statement the Foreign Secretary says that he intends to meet again with the Foreign Ministers of Turkey and Greece and representatives of the Greek and Turkish Cypriot community on August 8. But inevitably this must be a preliminary to the lengthy discussions which will have to take place about the future of the island and a new Constitution. How do the Government see this developing? It would surely be impossible for the Foreign Secretary to do that himself.
In the meantime—I know that these are difficult questions for the noble Lord to answer—should not something be done to make the Declaration which, as the noble Lord has said, is impermanent, a great deal more permanent while these constitutional discussions continue?
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I should like most heartily to associate my colleagues on these Benches with the congratulations extended by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, to the Foreign Secretary. Although we do not always agree with the foreign policy of the Government, in this instance we have no hesitation in saying that Jim Callaghan was the right man in the right place. We think he has done splendidly. I wish only that he had somehow contrived to be at the same time in another place, namely Brussels. But clearly in the circumstances that was impossible.
On the Statement itself, I agree with all that the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said in his general observations on the subject. But I also draw attention to what is clearly the most important role, which I think emerges from the Statement, of the United Nations Forces in the future, if there is in the long run to be any agreement on the internal front. Would the Minister therefore perhaps say whether, in the circumstances, the Government intend to press in the Security Council, and I suppose also if necessary in the Assembly, for a strengthening of the United Nations Forces, however difficult from the financial point of view that may be, and, moreover, for the establishment in the Secretariat of some rather more elaborate machinery for controlling these forces when they are deployed in the field?
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords may I be permitted to endorse the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, in paying a well-deserved tribute to our combined forces in Cyprus who have emerged from this affair with flying colours. As to the moral to which the noble Lord, Lord Carrington referred, that might be left to future interpretation. It may be possible to agree with what he has in his mind about it, but I should think at the moment we have to exercise caution and patience in this matter. Can we be permitted to place on record our tribute to my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary who, in spite of the apparent great difficulties which have been recorded in the Press in the last few days. has emerged with great satisfaction? Although this does not mean a complete solution, it is a step in that direction.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, since the noble Lord the Leader of the House is not here, I wonder whether I might ask the Minister who is in charge of Government affairs, if it would not be better that we took this matter separately rather than to have about 15 questions and then the noble Lord having to answer 15 questions.
12.22 p.m.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, for his guidance. If I may address myself to what he so admirably said on the question of the Defence review, I can give this assurance, that the position in Cyprus, particularly in the light of recent events, will very much be taken into consideration in the Defence review which is currently being conducted.
On the other point he raised, as to the permanency of the provisions of the Declaration, I entirely agree with him. He will have noticed that the terminology, the phrasing used, is very cautious. As indeed my noble friend Lord Shinwell pointed out, this is a matter for caution and patience, but I do welcome very much what he and the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, had to say, and indeed what my noble friend had to say about the role which my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary has played in these crucial negotiations. He has literally worked night and day to achieve this very hopeful, very encouraging, but necessarily initiatory Declaration. As to its permenency, this is a matter for very hard work, for the reconvening of the conference with the addition of the representatives of the two communities on August 8—that is in a very short time—and for bringing into those decisions for making the provisions permanent the full force of the United Nations Resolution 353. That is the answer I have to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, that those discussions, like the ones I have described, will be based firmly on the requirements of Resolution 353.
As to the strengthening of the United Nations Forces on the Island, the Secretary-General, as the noble Lord knows, has appealed for greater contributions in manpower from the participating countries in the force UNFICYP, and we for our part have responded affirmatively to this.
LORD DUNCAN-SANDYS: My Lords, may I associate myself with the tribute paid to the Foreign Secretary, who has done a remarkable job in these last few days. With regard to the constitutional problem which will now have to be tackled, is it not clear that the Constitution of 1960 failed to establish peacful relations between Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, except to some extent with the help of a large United Nations Police Force which obviously cannot remain there indefinitely? And is it not also clear that the constitutional safeguards which were established in 1960, for political power-sharing between the two communities, proved totally unworkable? Must we not therefore reluctantly conclude that there are now in practice only two courses open; either to divide Cyprus into separate Greek and Turkish Federal areas enjoying wide internal autonomy; or alternatively to partition the Island between Greece and Turkey, thus involving the total abandonment of the whole concept of an independent State of Cyprus, something which I am sure we should all deeply regret?
BARONESS ELLES: My Lords, I wish to support very much what my noble friend Lord Carrington has said, and to take this opportunity to say that arising out of the tragedy in Cyprus perhaps one event has taken place which all Members of this House and those of us who have always been great admirers of the Greek people and their country would welcome, namely the return of Parliamentary democracy. We wish Mr. Karamanlis and his Government well, and send them our best wishes in their seeking a practical and constitutional solution to the many problems that now beset them.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I strongly welcome what the noble Baroness has just said. The intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Duncan-Sandys, is of course of special importance in view of the experience he has of this problem, the very prominent and distinguished part he took in trying to achieve some settlement in this troubled Island, a settlement which some may feel did work to some extent over a number of years; and some may also feel that the inter-communal talks which were conducted between Mr.
2334
Clerides and Mr. Denktash were showing some signs of succeeding when the coup was intruded into this hopeful situation. As to what he had to say in regard to the constitutional future of Cyprus, I am sure that everybody will take note of his views and suggestions, but he will not expect me to comment on them to-day.
LORD ORR-EWING: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that there are very many excitable young people, well armed, some with Turkish sympathies and some with Greek sympathies now in Cyprus, and that incidents there are likely to occur? Is it not therefore important that the United Nations Forces should be available in all parts of the Island, seven days a week, twenty-four hours a day, to intervene immediately in order to try to prevent some small incident which could easily conflagrate into something more serious while all these negotiations are going on? Would not he also agree that one of the lessons of this incident—as in so many foreign and defence incidents—is that there has been a bi-partisan approach across this House and across another place, and that it will be more difficult to continue this bi-partisan approach while neither House is sitting? Therefore, during the Recess, would the noble Lord use his influence to see that all three main political Parties are kept informed on progress in this very difficult and almost intractable problem?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I warmly welcome what the noble Lord has to say about approaching this matter in a united fashion. I am quite sure that the Foreign Secretary was greatly helped by the consciousness that all sections of both Houses were entirely with him in his objectives, and I would personally—and indeed I am quite sure that my right honourable friend would—wish during the coming weeks, which may well be difficult and crucial, seek to keep informed the Leaders of the various great Parties of State about how things are going. I very much take on board the suggestion made by the noble Lord. As to the policing of these troubled areas and the restraining of certain sections of the population, not entirely restricted to the youth, we agree that the greatest possible presence and intervention of United Nations Forces is what we should increasingly aim at.
LORD MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, as one who is deeply anxious about the fate of some women and children still in lonely parts of Cyprus, may I express my thanks, and those of many people, to the combined Forces, to the Foreign Office and epecially to the Red Cross for all that they have done up to the moment in getting British citizens back? Will the Government continue this work of seeking out these British citizens, women and children, who are still left in very lonely parts of Cyprus?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am aware of the noble Lord's personal interest in the fate of Cypriot citizens in these distressing situations. As he and noble Lords know, at a very early date we set up an emergency unit in the Foreign Office to do what we could to help in these cases, and that will continue so long as there are cases to be helped. In regard to the noble Lord's tribute to various agencies which have helped in this situation, I particularly welcome his tribute to my right honourable friend and to the combined Forces of her Majesty, who in this situation have proved of immense help and of irretraceable importance.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I wonder whether this is a suitable opportunity for me to intervene. We have been dealing with this important Statement for some 22 minutes, there is another Statement to be made, and there is another piece of Business in which I have a personal interest. I wonder whether it is the feeling of your Lordships that we should now move to the next piece of Business on our Order Paper, taking into account the time.

RENT BILL [H.L.]
12.32 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved. That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RENT BILL [H.L.]

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [References are to Bill 82 as first printed for the Commons]
  [Nos. 1, 15, 16, 18, 19, 39, 40, 41, 42 and 43]
  2336
  [1.] Title, line 2, after 1971 insert "and the provisions of Part 11 of the Housing Finance Act 1972 and of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1972 relating to rent allowances".
  [15.] Before Clause 10 insert the following new Clauses—
  Rent allowances
  (1) On and after such day as the Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument appoint, so much of Part II of the Housing Finance Act 1972 (rent rebates and rent allowances) as requires that, in order to qualify for an allowance, a person occupying a dwelling under a Part VI letting must be a qualified person, within the meaning of section 19(12) of that Act, shall cease to have effect.
  (2) The proviso to subsection (1) of section 25 of the Housing Finance Act 1972 (which, in the case of certain furnished lettings. determines the rent which is eligible to be met by a rebate or an allowance for the purposes of Schedule 3 to that Act) shall cease to have effect on the commencement date.
  (3) Notwithstanding anything in subsection (2) above, in the case of a person who immediately before the commencement date was a tenant under a Part VI letting, the provisions of subsection (4) below shall apply if, for an allowance period which was current on or ended immediately before the commencement date, the tenant was entitled to an allowance towards the rent payable under the Part VI letting and, in calculating that allowance for the last week of that period which ended before the commencement date, the rent which, for the purposes of Schedule 3 to the Housing Finance Act 1972, was eligible to be met by a rebate or an allowance was that determined under paragraph (a) of the proviso to section 25(1) of that Act (the occupational clement of the rent or of the residue of the rent plus 25 per cent.).
  (4) If, by virtue of subsection (3) above, this subsection applies in relation to a tenant, then, subject to subsection (5) below, on and after the commencement date, if and so long as—

  (a) the tenant continues to occupy as his home the dwelling to which, immediately before that date, the Part VI letting referred to in subsection (3) above applied, and

  (b) the tenant continues to be entitled to an allowance towards the rent payable by him for that dwelling, and

  (c) the rent continues to include payment for the use of furniture, the rent which, for the purposes of Schedule 3 to the Housing Finance Act 1972, is eligible to be met by a rebate or an allowance shall, in his case, be the amount of the rent which was so eligible for the week mentioned in subsection (3) above (in this section referred to as "the former eligible rent").

  (5) If, for any week of an allowance period when, apart from this subsection, subsection (4) above would apply in relation to a tenant, that subsection shall cease to apply if—

  (a) the amount determined under section 25(1) of the Housing Finance Act 1972 as the rent which is eligible to be met by a

  2337
  rebate or an allowance exceeds the former eligible rent, or

  (b) the rent recoverable from the tenant, exclusive of any part thereof attributable to rates, is less than the former eligible rent, or

  (c) part of the dwelling is sub-let and the former eligible rent either did not take account of the occupational element of any rent payable by a sub-tenant or took account of such an element which is less than the occupational element of the rent payable for that week by the sub-tenant,

  and, accordingly, from the beginning of that week the rent which is eligible to be met by a rebate or an allowance shall be that determined as mentioned in paragraph (a) above.
  (6) In subsection (1) of section 25 of the Housing Finance Act 1972 after the words "of the rent" there shall be inserted, in substitution for the words there inserted by paragraph 17 of Schedule 1 to the Furnished Lettings (Rent Allowances) Act 1973, the words "(or if, in the case of an allowance, any amount falls to be deducted by virtue of paragraph 14 of Schedule 4 to this Act, the occupational element of the residue of the rent remaining after deducting those amounts)".
  (7) Subsections (2) and (3) of the said section 25 shall be amended as follows:—

  (a)at the end of subsection (2) there shall be added the words "and

  (c) loss, in the case of an allowance, any amonnt which, in the case of the tenant concerned, is prescribed as a deduction by virtue of paragraph (c) of subsection (3) below"; and

  (b)at the end of subsection (3) there shall be added the words "and

  (c) prescribe deductions from rent for the purposes of subsection (2)(c) above in the case of tenants of such descriptions as may be specified in the regulations who are for the time being in receipt of awards or grants under any provision of sections 1 to 3 of the Education Act 1962 or any other award or grant which is paid out of money provided by Parliament and is determined by the Secretary of State to be an analogous award or grant,

  and different provision may be made by virtue of paragraph (c) above in relation to different periods and different classes of awards or grants".
  (8) In subsection (1) of section 26 of the Housing Finance Act 1972 (interpretation of Part II) in the definition of "tenant" after paragraph (c) there shall be inserted the following paragraph:—
  "(d) a person who is treated as a private tenant under a Part VI letting by virtue of subsection (8A) of section 19 of this Act".
  (9) The said section 26 shall apply in relation to subsections (1) to (5) above as if those subsections were included in Part II of the Housing Finance Act 1972 and, without prejudice to the application of that section, the reference in subsection (3) above to a tenant under a Part VI letting includes a reference
  2338
  to a person who is treated as if he were a private tenant under a Part VI letting by virtue of section 19(8A) of that Act and any reference in that subsection or subsection (4) above to a Part VI letting means, in relation to a person who is so treated, the letting referred to in the said section 19(8A).
  [16]
  Rent allowance in Scotland
  (1) On and after such day as the Secretary of Slate may by order made by statutory instrument appoint, so much of section 16 of the Act of 1972 (rent allowances) as requires that, for certain persons to be or to be treated as private tenants, they must be qualified persons within the meaning of subsection (S) of that section, shall cease to have effect.
  (2) In paragraph I5(l)(g)(ii) of Schedule 3 to the Act of 1972 (which provides that in ascertaining the amount of an allowance in respect of a furnished letting a certain amount of rent payable is to be disregarded), the words "125 per cent. of" shall cease to have effect on the commencement date.
  (3) Notwithstanding anything in subsection (2) above, in the case of a person who immediately before the commencement date was a tenant of a dwelling-house under a furnished letting, the provisions of subsection (4) below shall apply if, for an allowance period which was current on or ended immediately before that date, the tenant was entitled to an allowance towards the rent payable under the furnished letting which was calculated, for the last week of that period which ended before that date, by reference to an amount of rent which, after making the deduction (if any) required by head (i) of paragraph 15(l)(g) of Schedule 3 to the Act of 1972, was more than the estimated fair rent referred to in head (ii) of that paragraph but not more than 125 per cent. of that estimated fair rent.
  (4) If, by virtue of subsection (3) above, this subsection applies in relation to a tenant, then, if and so long as he continues on and after the commencement date to be—

  (a) a tenant of the same dwelling-house under the same letting (whether or not it continues to be a furnished letting), and

  (b) entitled to an allowance towards the rent under the letting concerned,

  the allowance shall be calculated by reference to the amount of rent referred to in subsection (3) above until—

  (i) the rent recoverable from the tenant for any week of an allowance period is less than the amount referred to in that subsection, or

  (ii) the amount of rent by reference to which, but for this subsection, the allowance for any such week would be calculated is higher than the amount referred to in subsection (3) above,

  whichever is the earlier; and as from the beginning of that week the allowance shall be calculated by reference to the amount of rent to which an authority would be entitled to have regard but for this subsection.
  (5) Paragraph 17 of Schedule 2 to the Act of 1972 shall be amended as follows—

  (a) in sub-paragraph (1) for the words "sub-paragraph (2) below" there shall be substituted the words "the following provisions of this paragraph";

  (b) at the end there shall be added the following sub-paragraphs—

  "(3) It shall be the duty of every authority, for the purpose of computing the amount of an allowance towards the rent payable by tenants of such classes as may be prescribed who are for the time being in receipt of—

  (a) an award or grant, being a bursary, scholarship or allowance granted under section 49(1) or 75(f) of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962, or

  (b) any other award or grant which is paid out of money provided by Parliament and is determined by the Secretary of State to be analagous to any such bursary, scholarship or allowance, to treat the rent as reduced by such amount as may be prescribed.

  (4) In sub-paragraph (3) above "prescribed" means prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
  (5) Regulations under this paragraph may make different provision in relation to different periods and different classes of awards or grants."
  (6) In this section "the Act of 1972" means the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1972; and section 22 of the Act of 1972 (interpretation of Part II of that Act) shall apply in relation to this section as if it were included in that Part.
  [18] Clause 11 (2), fourth line, after 'Act' insert ' other than sections (Rent allowances) and (Rent allowances in Scotland) above '.
  [19] Clause 12, at end insert 'but, in the case of the enactments specified in Part II of that Schedule, only with effect from the day appointed for the purposes of subsection (1) of sections (Rent allowances) and (Rent allowances in Scotland) above '.
  [39] Schedule 3, at end insert—
  ' 3.—(1) The provisions of this paragraph shall have effect with respect to the period beginning on the commencement date and ending on the day appointed for the purposes of subsection (1) of section (Rent allowances) of this Act, and in the following provisions of this paragraph that period is referred to as "the interim period".
  (2) During the interim period every allowance scheme (including an allowance scheme which is the model scheme, as defined in section 20(7) of the Housing Finance Act 1972) shall be deemed to be varied to such extent as is necessary to take account of the provisions of subsections (2) to (5) of section (Rent allowances) of this Act and of the repeals of provisions of Part II of that Act contained in Part I of Schedule 4 to this Act.
  2340
  (3) No account shall be taken for the purposes of section 24 of the Housing Finance Act 1972 (publicity for schemes) of any deemed variation of a scheme which is effected by sub-paragraph (2) above.
  (4) Where, during the interim period, an authority vary their allowance scheme to take account of the provisions of the subsections and of the repeals referred to in subsection (2) above, the variation shall not take effect until the day appointed as mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) above.
  (5) At any time within the interim period an authority may vary their allowance scheme, with effect from the day appointed as mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) above, to take account of the modifications of Part II of the Housing Finance Act 1972 effected on and after that day by subsection (1) of section (Rent allowances) of, and Part II of Schedule 4 to, this Act.
  (6) In this paragraph "allowance scheme" and "authority" have the same meanings as in Part II of the Housing Finance Act 1972.
  4. Subsection (3) of section 20 of the Housing Finance Act 1972 (proposals for regulations varying Schedules 3 and 4 to that Act to be referred to the Advisory Committee on Rent Rebates and Rent Allowances) shall not apply to regulations which are—

  (a) made within the period of three months beginning on the commencement date; and

  (b) expressed to be made for the purpose of making in either of those Schedules variations consequential upon provision made by virtue of paragraph (c) of section 25(3) of that Act (as set out in section (Rent allowances) (7) of this Act.)'

  ' 5.—(1) The provisions of this paragraph shall have effect with respect to the period beginning on the commencement date and ending on the day appointed for the purposes of subsection (1) of section (Rent allowances in Scotland) of this Act, and in the following provisions of this paragraph that period is referred to as "the interim period".
  (2) During the interim period every allowance scheme (including an allowance scheme which is the model scheme as defined in section 17(5) of the Act of 1972) shall be deemed to be varied to such extent as is necessary to take account of the provisions of subsections (2) to (4) of section (Rent allowances in Scotland) of this Act.
  (3) No account shall be taken for the purposes of section 19(2) of the Act of 1972 (publicity for allowance schemes) of any deemed variation of a scheme which is effected by sub-paragraph (2) above.
  (4) Where, during the interim period, an authority vary their allowance scheme to take account of the provisions of the subsections referred to in sub-paragraph (2) above, the variation shall not take effect until the day appointed as mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) above.
  (5) At any time within the interim period an authority may vary, with effect from the day appointed as mentioned in sub-paragraph
  (1) above, their allowance scheme to take account of the modifications of section 16 of the Act of 1972 effected on and after that day by subsection (1) of section (Rent allowances in Scotland of this Act.
  [41] Schedule 4, page 20, line 49, at end insert—

  ' 1972 c. 46.

  The Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1972.

  In Schedule 3, in paragraph 15(1)(g)(ii) the words "125 per cent. of".'

  [42] Column 3, leave out line 50 and insert—

  'In section 23, in subsection (1) the words "or making orders under section 25(3A) of this Act"

  In section 25, in subsection (1) the proviso, subsection (3A) and in subsection (4) the words "and orders".

  Section 89.'

  [43] Line 51, at end add—

  ' 1973 c. 6.

  The Furnished Lettings (Rent Allowances) Act 1973.

  In Schedule 1, paragraphs 17, 19 and 20.'

  PART II
  REPEALS TAKING EFFECT ON DAY APPOINTED UNDER SUBSECTION (1) OF SECTIONS (RENT ALLOWANCES) AND (RENT ALLOWANCES IN SCOTLAND)

  ' 1972 c. 46.

  The Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1972.

  In section 16, subsections (3), (5) and (7) the words "being a qualified person within the meaning of subsection (8) of this section", and subsections (8), (9) and (10).

  '1972 c. 47.

  The Housing Finance Act 1972.

  In section 19, in subsections (4) and (6) the words "being a qualified person within the meaning of subsection (12) below", in subsection (8A) paragraph (6) and the word "and" immediately preceding it and sub sections (12) to (14).

  In section 23, in subsection (1) the words from "or to the descriptions" to the end of the subsection.

  In section 24, in subsection (10) the words from "or to a person" to "would be a private tenant" and in subsection (11) the words from "or for a person" to "would be a private tenant of a dwelling".

  ' 1973 c. 6.

  The Furnished Lettings (Rent Allowances) Act 1973.

  I In Schedule 1, paragraphs 10 and 12 '.

  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, with permission I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1, 15, 16, 18, 19, 39, 40, 41, 42, and 43, and with permission I will take them en bloc. The main purpose of these Amendments is to bring the present provisions relating to eligibility for the rent allowance in respect of furnished tenants into line with those in respect of unfurnished tenants. I believe that these provisions will be well received by your Lordships' House. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1, 15, 16, 18, 19, 39, 40, 41, 42 and 43.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Shepherd.)
  (6) In this paragraph "the Act of 1972" means the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1972; and "allowance scheme" and "authority" have the same meanings as in Part II of the Act of 1972.'
  BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for introducing these Amendments and to say that they have the complete support of this side of the House. The scheme of rent allowances was introduced by the last Government, and it is only equitable and just that it should be extended in exactly the same form to the tenants of furnished accommodation as to those in unfurnished accommodation. I am very happy to agree to them.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 2, 3, 5 and 8]
  Clause 2(1) leave out sub-paragraphs (bb) (i) to (iii) and insert—'a course of study

  2343
  provided by a specified educational institution and is so granted either by that institution, or by another specified institution or body of persons '
  [3] Clause 2(2), second line, leave out from ' following ' in the second line of subsection (2) to the end of subsection (5) and insert ' subsection:—
  "(4) In paragraph (bb) of subsection (1) above "specified" means specified, or of a class specified, for the purposes of that paragraph by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument '.
  [5] Clause 3(1), at and insert—
  'Case IOC
  Where the dwelling house is let under a tenancy for a term of years certain not exceeding 12 months and—

  (a)not later than the relevant date the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered under this Case; and

  (b)at some time within the period of 12 months ending on the relevant date, the dwelling house was subject to such a tenancy as is referred to in section 2(1) (bb) of this Act;

  and for the purposes of this Case a tenancy shall be treated as being for a term of years certain notwithstanding that it is liable to determination by re-entry or on the happening of any event other than the giving of notice by the landlord to determine the term '.
  [8] Clause 3, at end insert—
  'Case 11C
  Where the dwelling-house is let under a tenancy for a specified period not exceeding 12 months and—

  (a) not later than the relevant date the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered under this Case; and

  (b) at some time within the period of 12 months ending on the relevant date the dwelling-house was subject to such a tenancy as is referred to in section 2(1) (bb) of this Act;

  and for the purposes of this Case a tenancy shall be treated as being for a specified period

  (i) of less than 12 months, if it is determinable at the option of the landlord (other than in the even of an irritancy being incurred) before the expiration of 12 months from the commencement of the period of the tenancy, and

  (ii) of 12 months or more, if it confers on the tenant an option for renewal of the tenancy for a period which, together with the original period, amounts to 12 months or more, and it is not determinable as mentioned in paragraph (i) above '.

  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 5 and 8. The noble Baroness, Lady Young, argued very compellingly in favour of her Amendment when the Bill was originally before your Lordships, and I have no doubt at all that if she were so minded she would do so to-day. I can now say with complete honesty that the Government appreciate the concern which she and her noble friends feel on this issue, and this concern is fully shared on these Benches. We recognise that urgent action is necessary to ensure the continuance of an adequate supply of private rented accommodation for students, and we are fully committed to taking that action. But let me explain to your Lordships why the Amendment which was inserted here is not, in our opinion, a practical proposition.
  It imported into rent legislation the entirely new and very dangerous concept that protection should depend, not on any fact connected with the relationship between the landlord and tenant, or with the nature of the letting, but rather with the occupation pursued or not pursued by the tenant. This would immediately give rise to practical difficulties of hair-raising complexity; and, as one who has been in this present condition since he was 21, I might well have felt that the Amendment of the noble Baroness needed no other merit. But, of course, the question is: should an existing tenant lose his protection if, perhaps, in maturity, with a view to a change of career, he decides to take up one of the numerous courses of study or training specified in the Amendment which was moved by the noble Baroness? If a person ceases to be a student but wishes to remain in the same accommodation, perhaps taking up a job in the same area, can he ever become a protected tenant; and, if so, at what point in time?
  The noble Baroness's proposal may well have involved great hardship to those students who are married and have families, and who thus have arguably as good a claim to full protection as anyone else. There were many other difficulties which I deployed in the course of our Committee and Report stages. The Government are fully appreciative of the urgency of this matter, and of the need for workable machinery; and we therefore intend, as I said in my offer to the noble

  2345
  Baroness, to enter into immediate and full-searching inquiry and consultation with the various authorities concerned. When those have been completed, it is our intention to move legislation for the purpose of dealing with this problem, and we have particularly in mind a form of registration. This is a matter to which we attach great importance, and we recognise the urgency. We do not believe the noble Baroness's Amendment, which was included in the Bill when it went to another place, was practical or desirable. But it is our intention to deal with this problem as soon as possible. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 5 and 8.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Shepherd.)
  BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will expect me to do anything else but to express deep regret that the Government have been unable to meet in a satisfactory form the very real problems which were identified by all sections of the House on the question of student accommodation. I am very disappointed that we are left with the Bill as drafted in the first instance. The noble Lord has given two reasons for not accepting the Amendment which your Lordships agreed to at Committee stage, the first being that he did not like the drafting of it. That is something which I think anybody who is not a Parliamentary draftsman comes up against. But he said, in effect, that he did not like the fact that the way it was drafted was dependent on the occupation of the tenant and not on the type of accommodation. I should have hoped that the Government would be able to redraft the Amendment to meet that point, if that was the cause of the difficulty.
  The second reason which the noble Lord gave for not accepting the Amendment, which was that if someone was a mature student taking up a course, perhaps in his thirties or forties, he would lose his existing protection, which is perhaps the only argument that he could have produced against it, has certainly come very late in the day. If he went into the question, I think he would find that the overwhelming majority of students who take up these courses will be married
  2346
  women and that it will almost certainly be the husband who will be the tenant of the house, so I am not at all convinced that this is an argument that would apply to more than a very few cases.
  On the general point, as I indicated before, under our Amendment the position of the students would have been no different from what it is under present legislation, so that one cannot say that in any sense they were being discriminated against. I think the disadvantage of what is now in the Bill is that it has been drawn up without any consultation with the Department of Education and Science or the local authorities, which is in itself something to be deplored. It affects thousands of students—we are not talking about a very small number—and the fact that the Bill is drafted as it is indicates the Government's concern because, as I understand Clause 2(1)(bb), this applies only to those rare students who are tenants and not licensees, and the reason why they are deliberately excluded is because it would not be helpful to future generations of students if accommodation let to students were let to them permanently.
  The fact that this clause has been put in shows that the Government recognise the very real problem which exists for all universities. What they are suggesting is that there should be regulations brought in by the Minister to specify who is a student and where he is to live, but this will take some time and the noble Lord has already indicated that it will require legislation. It may well be that we shall not see the worst effects of the Bill in October, but we shall almost certainly begin to see them by the following October, when students will be looking for accommodation, and I hope that the Government will recognise the urgency of the situation. In my own town of Oxford, there are already horrifying stories about the difficulty of finding accommodation: this Bill will make it infinitely worse for every single university student.
  So there is great urgency, which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, recognises. I should like to ask him to indicate to us what is his timetable on this. Do the Government—should they still be the Government next autumn—intend to move an Amendment to the Housing Bill which they published two

  2347
  days' ago to include something on this point? If not, are they proposing a Housing Bill of some kind in the course of next year in order to meet the problem that will arise in October, 1975? If they are not, we have a situation which will become serious next year and extremely serious very soon after that.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, as I said at the beginning, the noble Baroness can always argue in a pleasant but formidable way. I thought that she erred in only one respect, and that was in introducing any question of doubt as to who will be occupying this side of the House in October, but then I know that the noble Baroness still lives in hope. What I will say to the noble Baroness is that I recognise the urgency though I cannot go any further than what I have said today in terms of legislation. We recognise the urgency and, since I expect to be occupying a certain room which the noble Baroness well knows in No. 2, Marsham Street, I will invite the noble Baroness to come to have coffee with me on October 16, the day following the day when this House resumes. I will give her a cup of coffee and that will give me an opportunity to be pursued by her on this matter, and I shall then perhaps be in a position to give a more satisfactory reply than that which I can now give her in regard to this item.
  LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, is my noble friend suggesting that coffee is the right way to celebrate?
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, it depends entirely on whom one is celebrating with.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  12.45 p.m.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28.]
  [4]
  Clause 3(1), leave out from beginning to after "'Case 10A' and insert:
  (1) In Part II of Schedule 3 to the Rent Act 1968 (Cases in which court must order possession of dwelling-house subject to regulated tenancy) the following Cases shall be inserted after Case 10:—
  "Case 10A
  Where a person (in this Case referred to as "the owner") who acquired the dwelling-house or any interest therein with a view to occupy-
  2348
  ing it as his residence at such time as he might retire from regular employment let it on a regulated tenancy before he has so retired and

  (a) not later than the relevant date the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered under this Case, and

  (b) the dwelling-house has not, since the commencement date, within the meaning of the Rent Act 1974, been let by the owner on a protected tenancy with respect to which the condition mentioned in paragraph (a) above was not satisfied, and

  (c) the court is satisfied either that the owner has retired from regular employment and requires the dwelling-house as a residence or that the owner has died and the dwelling-house is required as a residence for a member of his family who was residing with him at the time of his death:

  Provided that if the court is of the opinion that, notwithstanding that the condition in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) above is not complied with, it is just and equitable to make an order for possession of the dwelling-house, the court may dispense with the requirements of either or both of those paragraphs, as the case may require."
  Case 10B
  [6] Clause 3(2), third line, leave out "Case" and insert "Cases"
  [7] Clause 3(2), fifth line, after "Case 11A" insert—
  Where a person (in this Case referred to as "the owner") who acquired the dwelling-house or any interest therein with a view to occupying it as his residence at such time as he might retire from regular employment let it on a regulated tenancy before he has so retired and—

  (a) not later than the relevant date the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered under this Case, and

  (b) the dwelling-house has not, since the commencement date, within the meaning of the Rent Act 1974, been let by the owner on a protected tenancy with respect to which the condition mentioned in paragraph (a) above was not satisfied, and

  (c) the court is satisfied either that the owner has retired from regular employment and requires the dwelling-house as a residence or that the owner has died and the dwelling-house is required as a residence for a member of his family who was residing with him at the time of his death:

  Provided that if the court is of the opinion that, notwithstanding that the condition in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) above is not complied with, it is just and equitable to make an order for possession of the dwelling-house, the court may dispense with the requirements of either or both of those paragraphs, as the case may require.
  Case 11B
  [a.] Clause 3, at end insert—
  (3) At the end of Case 10 in Part II of Schedule 3 to the Rent Act 1968 and at the

  2349
  end of Case 11 in Part II of Schedule 3 to the Rent (Scotland) Act 1971 there shall be added the following proviso—
  "Provided that if the court is of the opinion that, notwithstanding that the condition in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) above is not complied with, it is just and equitable to make an order for posession of the dwelling-house, the court may dispense with the requirements of either or both of those paragraphs, as the case may require.
  [10.] After Clause 3 insert the following new Clause—
  Advance application for registration of a new rent
  (1) At the beginning of subsection (3) of section 44 of the Rent Act, 1968 (no application for registration of a new rent until three- years after a previous registration) there shall be inserted the words "Subject to subsection (3A) below" and at the end of that sub section there shall be added the following subsection:
  "(3A) Notwithstanding anything in subsection (3) above, an application as such as is mentioned in that subsection which is made by the landlord alone and is so made within the last three months of the period of three years referred to in that subsection may be entertained notwithstanding that that period has not expired."
  (2) At the beginning of subsection (1) of section 48 of that Act (effect of registration of rent) there shall be inserted the words "Subject to subsection (1A) below" and at the end of that subsection there shall be added the following subsection:—
  "(1A) Where, by virtue of subsection (3A) of section 44 above, an application is made before the expiry period of three years referred to in subsection (3) of that section, subsection (1) above shall have effect as if for the reference to the date of the application there were substituted a reference to the first day after the expiry of that period of three years."
  (3) At the beginning of subsection (3) of section 40 of the Rent (Scotland) Act 1971 (no application for registration of a new rent until three years after a previous registration) there shall be inserted the words "Subject to subsection (3A) below" and at the end of that subsection there shall be added the following subsection:—
  "(3A) An application such as is mentioned in subsection (3) above which is made by the landlord alone and is so made within the last three months of the period of three years referred to in that subsection may be entertained before the expiry of that period, notwithstanding that the application is not made upon any of the grounds mentioned in that subsection."
  (4) At the beginning of subsection (1) of section 44 of the said Act of 1971 (effect of registration of rent) there shall be inserted the words "Subject to subsection (1A) below" and at the end of that subsection there shall be added the following subsection:—
  2350
  "(1A) Where, by virtue of subsection. (3A) of section 40 above, an application is made before the expiry of the period of three years referred to in subsection (3) of that section, subsection (1) above shall have effect as if for the reference to the date of the application there were substituted a reference to the first day after the expiry of that period of three years".
  [11.]
  Clause 7, leave out subsection (1).
  [12.]
  Clause 7, at end insert—
  (2) In section 80 of that Act (reduction of period of notice on account of lessee's default) at the end of paragraph (c) of subsection (2) there shall be added the words "or
  (d) that the condition of any furniture provided for the use of the lessee under the contract has deteriorated owing to any ill-treatment by the lessee or any person residing or lodging with him".
  [13.]
  Clause 9, leave out subsection (1).
  [14.]
  Clause 9, at end insert—
  (2) In section 95 of that Act (reduction of period of notice on account of lessee's default) at the end of paragraph (c) of subsection (2) there shall be added the words "or
  (d) that the condition of any furniture provided for the use of the lessee under the contract has deteriorated owing to any ill-treatment by the lessee or any person residing or lodging with him".
  [17.]
  After Clause 10 insert the following new clause:
  "Power of sheriff, in action for possession, to reduce period of notice to quit.
  (1) After section 80 of the Rent Act 1968 there shall be inserted the following section:—
  "Power of county court, in action for possession, to reduce period of notice to quit.
  80A. In any case where—

  (a) a notice to quit a dwelling which is the subject of a Part VI contract has been served, and

  (b) the period at the end of which the notice to quit takes effect is for the time being extended by virtue of section 77 or section 78 above, and

  (c) at some time during that period the lessor institutes proceedings in the county court for the recovery of possession of the dwelling, and

  (d) in those proceedings the county court is satisfied that any of paragraphs (a) to (d) of section 80(2) above applies, the court may direct that the period referred to in paragraph (b) above shall be reduced so as to end at a date specified in the direction."

  (2) At the end of subsection (3) of section 106 of that Act (rules as to procedure) there shall be added the words "and section 80A."
  (3) After section 95 of the Rent (Scotland) Act 1971 there shall be inserted the following section:—
  "Power of sheriff, in action for possession, to reduce period of notice to quit.
  95A. In any case where—

  (a) a notice to quit a dwelling-house which is the subject of a Part VII contract has been served, and

  (b) the period at the end of which the notice to quit takes effect is for the time being extended by virtue of section 92 or section 93 above, and

  (c) at some time during that period the lessor institutes proceedings before the sheriff for possession of the dwelling-house, and

  (d) in those proceedings the sheriff is satisfied that any of paragraphs (a) to (d) of section 95(2) above applies, the sheriff may direct that the period referred to in paragraph (b) above shall be reduced so as to end at a date specified in the direction" '.

  [23.]
  Schedule 1, paragraph 1, in the first line of the inserted case 3A, leave out from "where" to "the" in the second line of that case.
  [24.]
  Schedule 1, paragraph 7, 7th line, leave out ' to the means of the tenant and '.
  [25.]
  Schedule 1, paragraph 8, 4th line, at end insert ' (determination by fair wear and tear excluded) '.
  [26.]
  Schedule 1, paragraph 9(2)(c), 2nd line, after ' tenancy ' insert ' any improvement to the furniture by the tenant under the regulated tenancy or any predecessor in title of his or, as the case may be, '.
  [27.]
  Schedule 1, paragraph 17, at end insert ' (excluding any deterioration in that furniture due to fair wear and tear) '.
  [28.]
  Schedule 1, paragraph 18, sub-paragraph (2). leave out from beginning to ' there ' in second line and insert—
  ' (2) In subsection (3) of that section (factors to be disregarded)—

  (a) in paragraph (b), after the word ' improvement ' there shall be inserted the words ' (including any improvement to the furniture provided for use under the tenancy) ';

  (b) at the end '.

  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments. This group of Amendments contains some notable improvements to the Bill suggested by the Opposition in another place and the Government's version of the retirement homes case first introduced in your Lordships' House in our consideration of the Bill. In particular, your Lord-
  2352
  ships will be glad to hear that the Government have accepted the views expressed here as well as in another place that there should be some legislation to relax the statutory requirement for the landlord to serve a notice on a tenant in order to maintain an absolute right to recover possesion of his home or intended i retirement home. My honourable friend the Minister has also taken provision to enable the resident landlord to go to the court for an order for possession when a tenant has been misbehaving notwithstanding the fact that the rent tribunal has suspended the operation of a notice to quit. The power of the rent tribunal to suspend a notice to quit has also been reduced to the current level—that is, to up to six months at a time, and not 12 months as it was originally proposed in the Bill. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amend- ments.—(Lord Shepherd.)
  BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I should like to begin by thanking the Government for redrafting and including this series of Amendments on retirement homes. I think I am right in saying that it requires two new cases to be added to Schedule 3 to the Rent Act 1968 and, as my noble friend Lord Colville is sitting here, he will be glad that, even if his drafting has not been accepted, the Amendments have been included in the Bill, although we were not successful in the case of the students. I understand that these provisions apply to Scotland as well as to England and Wales, and I am glad to see the other Amendments which, as I understand it, bring the Bill into line on the question of the rent tribunal giving possession in six months instead of a year, as it was originally drafted, so that the Bill is in line with the 1968 Act.
  My Lords, that brings me to the general point which I made both in Committee and on Third Reading regarding the need for a simplified version of the Bill to be available to the public. I hope very much that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, can say that there is one now in proof form. He will, I know, recall that the Bill is to come into effect in a fortnight's time and therefore that time is of the essence. There are quite a number of changes in the law which will affect enormous numbers of individuals.

  2353
  I am not so worried about businesses and firms, since large businesses at least will no doubt have a lawyer to help them, but I feel that many individuals could be affected and that it is very necessary to have these new provisions set out in an easily understandable form. I hope that the noble Lord can give that assurance.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Baroness that this needs to be explained in the simplest language possible. Heaven knows! the public are thoroughly justified in demanding that, because even a notable barrister such as the noble Viscount would I am sure be lost in some parts of our existing rent legislation. This is a matter which I intend to go into fully later this afternoon. I understand that steps are being taken to give the widest possible publicity to the matter and that there is a prospect of a television programme which should be of particular value to tenants and landlords. We are fully taken of the need for the fullest possible exposure of this legislation to the public eye and for it to be explained in the simplest layman's language so that all concerned may fully understand not only the rights but also the duties which flow from it.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  12.50 p.m.
  [Nos. 20, 21, 22, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 and 38]:
  [No. 20.]
  Clause 13(6), first line, leave out ("5, 6 and 7") and insert "(Advance application for registration of new rent) (I) and (2), 5, 6, 7, (Rent allowances) and (Power of court in action for possession to reduce period of notice to quit) (1) and (2)".
  [No. 21.]
  Clause 13(6), third line, leave out ("8 and 9"), and insert "(Advance application for registration of new rent) (3) and (4), 8, 9, (Rent allowances in Scotland) and (Power of court in action for possession to reduce period of notice to quit) (3)".
  [No. 22.]
  Clause 13, leave out subsection (8).
  [No. 29.]
  Schedule 2, paragraph 2(5A) (1), first line, leave out "(2)" and insert "(b)".
  [No. 30.]
  Schedule 2, paragraph 2("5A")(1)(a), first line at end insert "and that building is not a purpose-built block of flats".
  [No. 31.]
  Schedule 2, paragraph 2("5A")(1)(b), leave out from beginning to "as" in second line, and insert:
  "(b) subject to subsection (2) below, the tenancy was granted by a person who, at the time when he granted it, occupied".
  [No. 32.]
  Schedule 2, paragraph 2("5A")(l)(c), at beginning insert "subject to subsection (3) below".
  [No. 33.]
  Schedule 2, paragraph 2("5A")(l)(c), fourth line, leave out "either".
  [No. 34.]
  Schedule 2, paragraph 2("5A")(1)(c), sixth line, leave out from "building", to end of paragraph 2("5A")(1) and insert—
  "(2) The condition in paragraph (b) of subsection 1 above shall be deemed to be fulfilled if the tenancy was granted by trustees and, at the time when the tenancy was granted, the interest of the landlord under the tenancy thereby created was held on trust for a person who was entitled to the liferent or to the fee or a share of the fee of that interest and who occupied as his residence a dwelling-house which forms part of the building referred to in paragraph (a) of that subsection.
  (3) In determining whether the condition in paragraph (c) of subsection (1) above is at any time fulfilled with respect to a tenancy, there shall be disregarded—

  (a) any period of not more than 14 days beginning with the date of the conveyance of the interest of the landlord under the tenancy to an individual who, during that period, does not occupy as his residence another dwelling-house which forms part of the building concerned;

  (b) if, within a period falling within paragraph (a) above, the individual concerned notifies the tenant in writing of his intention to occupy as his residence another such dwelling-house as is referred to in that paragraph, the period beginning with the date of the conveyance mentioned in that paragraph and ending—

  (i) at the expiry of the period of 6 months beginning on that date, or

  (ii) on the date on which the interest of the landlord under the tenancy ceases to be held by that individual, or

  (iii) on the date on which the condition in subsection (1)(c) above again applies, whichever is the earlier; and

  (c) any period of not more than 12 months beginning with the date of death of the landlord under the tenancy during which the interest of the landlord under the tenancy- is vested in his executor.

  (4) Throughout any period which, by virtue of subsection (3) above, falls to be disregarded for the purpose of determining whether the condition in subsection (l)(c) above is fulfilled with respect to a tenancy, no order for possession of the dwelling-house subject to that

  2355
  tenancy shall be made, other than an order which might be made if that tenancy were or, as the case may be, had been a regulated tenancy.
  (5) During any period when—

  (a) the interest of the landlord under the tenancy referred to in subsection (1) above is vested in trustees; and

  (b) that interest is held on trust for a person who is entitled to the liferent or to the fee or a share of the fee of that interest and who occupies as his residence a dwelling-house which forms part of the building referred to in paragraph (a) of that subsection,

  the condition in paragraph (c) of that subsection shall be deemed to be fulfilled and, accordingly, no part of that period shall be disregarded by virtue of subsection (3) above.
  (6) This section does not apply to a tenancy of a dwelling-house which forms part of a building if the tenancy is granted to a person who, immediately before it was granted, was a protected or statutory tenant of that dwelling-house or of any other dwelling-house in that building.
  (7) For the purposes of this section, a person shall be treated as occupying a dwelling-house as his residence if, so far as the nature of the case allows, he would be regarded as retaining possession of the dwelling-house for the purposes of paragraph (a) of section 3(1) above if he were such a person as is referred to in that paragraph.
  (8) For the purposes of this section—

  (a) a building is a purpose-built block of flats if, as constructed it contained, and it contains, two or more flats, and for this purpose "flat" has the same meaning as in section 208(1) of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1966;

  (b) "conveyance" includes the grant of a tenancy and any other conveyance or transfer other than upon death;

  (c) "the date of the conveyance" means the date on which the conveyance was granted, delivered or otherwise made effective".

  [No. 35.]
  Schedule 3, paragraph l(1)(a), leave out "contract" and insert "tenancy".
  [No. 36.]
  Schedule 3, paragraph 1(1)(3/4 after "'building" insert "and that building is not a purpose-built block of flats within the meaning of section 5 of the Rent Act 1968".
  [No. 37.]
  Schedule 3, paragraph l(l)(c), leave out from "lesser" in first line to end of paragraph 1 and insert "within the meaning of the relevant Part of the Rent Act, under the furnished letting—

  (i) belongs to a person who occupies as his residence another dwelling which also forms part of that building, or

  (ii) is vested in trustees as such and is or, if it is held on trust for sale, the proceeds of its sale are held on trust for a person who occupies as his residence another dwelling which also forms part of that building, and

  (d) apart from this paragraph the furnished letting would, on the commencement date, become a protected furnished tenancy.

  the Rent Act shall apply, subject to subparagraph (2) below, as if the tenancy had been granted on the commencement date and as if the condition in paragraph (b) of section 5A(1) of the Rent Act 1968 were fulfilled in relation to the grant of the tenancy.
  (2) In the application of the Rent Act 1968 to a tenancy by virtue of this paragraph—

  (a) subsection (5) of section 5A shall be omitted; and

  (b) in section 102A any reference to section 5A of that Act shall be construed as including a reference to this paragraph.

  (3) In any case where paragraphs (a), (b) and (d) of sub-paragraph (1) above apply but on the commencement date the interest ref erred to in paragraph (c) of that sub-paragraph is vested—

  (a) in the personal representatives of a deceased person acting in that capacity, or

  (b) by virtue of section 9 of the Administration of Estates Act 1925, in the Probate Judge, within the meaning of that Act, or

  (c) in trustees as such,

  then, if the deceased immediately before his death or, as the case may be, the settlor immediately before the creation of the trust occupied as his residence another dwelling which also formed part of the building referred to in paragraph (b) of sub-paragraph (1) above, that sub-paragraph shall apply as if the condition in paragraph (c) thereof were fulfilled.
  (4) In the application of subsection (2)(c) of section 5A of the Rent Act 1968 in a case falling within sub-paragraph (3) above, any period before the commencement date during which the interest of the landlord is vested as mentioned in that subsection shall be dis regarded in calculating the period of 12 months specified therein."
  [No. 38.]
  Schedule 3, paragraph 1, at end insert—
  "1A.—(1) In any case where—

  (a) before the commencement date a dwelling-house was subject to a tenancy which is a furnished letting; and

  (b) the dwelling-house forms part only of a building and that building is not a purpose-built block of flats within the meaning of section 5A of the Act of 1971; and

  (c) on that date the interest of the lessor, within the meaning of Part VII of that Act, under the furnished letting—

  (i) belongs to a person who occupies as his residence another dwelling-house which also forms part of that building, or

  (ii) is vested in trustees and is held on trust for a person who is entitled to the liferent or to the fee or a share of the fee of that interest and who occupies as his residence a dwelling-house which forms part of that building; and

  2357

  (d) apart from this paragraph the furnished letting would, on the commencement date, become a protected furnished tenancy,

  the Act of 1971 shall apply, subject to subparagraph (2) below, as if the tenancy had been granted on the commencement date and as if the condition in paragraph (b) of section 5A(1) of that Act were fulfilled in relation to the grant of the tenancy.
  (2) In the application of the Act of 1971 to a tenancy by virtue of this paragraph

  (a) subsection (6) of section 5A shall be omitted; and

  (b) in section 119A any reference to section 5A shall be construed as including a reference to this paragraph.

  (3) In any case where paragraphs (a), (b) and (d) of sub-paragraph (1) above apply but on the commencement date the interest of the lessor under the furnished letting is vested in the executor of a deceased person, then, if that deceased person immediately before his death occupied as his residence another dwelling-house which also formed part of the building referred to in paragraph (b) of sub-paragraph (1) above, that sub-paragraph shall apply as if the condition in paragraph (c) thereof were fulfilled.
  (4) In the application of subsection (3)(c) of section 5A of the Act of 1971, in a case falling within sub-paragraph (3) above, any period before the commencement date during which the interest of the lessor is vested in the executor as mentioned in that subsection shall be disregarded in calculating the period of 12 months specified in that subsection.
  (5) In this paragraph "the Act of 1971" means the Rent (Scotland) Act 1971".
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I have great pleasure in moving Amendments Nos. 20, 21, 22, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 and 38. They are technical, consequential and of a general tidying-up nature. My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Shepherd.)
  BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, we have had a very short time indeed in which to look at 27 pages of Amendments. I had them at 10 o'clock this morning, and I have been grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for helping me over one or two points. But as I understand it, these last technical Amendments are concerned with the provisions of the resident landlord. I wonder whether I could be absolutely clear on how the position has finally been left. There is, as I understand it, no security of tenure for tenants where the landlord is resident, where there is a self-contained
  2358
  flat in a house in which the landlord is resident, but that this does not apply to a block of flats. It is very important that we should get this point right—again from the point of view of the individual who is contemplating letting rooms or letting a flat in a house, and in meeting what is a very real problem, that is under-occupation of houses, which is something which none of us particularly wish to encourage. That is the position, and these long Amendments to the Schedule meet the Amendments that were made at the Report stage in this House which governed the provisions of the resident landlord.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am happy to confirm what the noble Baroness has said to be correct.
  LORD CLITHEROE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to make sure that when this television programme, or other form of advertising, takes place, this should be one of the points made clear.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I have no idea who is preparing the programme that is going on television, but I will see that what the noble Lord has said is drawn to the attention of those who are concerned with the production of that particular programme.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

E.E.C. CONVENTION OF ASSOCIATION
12.53 p.m.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, with the permission of the House, I should like to repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of Overseas Development. The Statement is as follows:
"With permission, I would like to make a statement on the Ministerial Conference in Kingston, Jamaica, of the E.E.C. and the 19 present Associates and 25 new Associables of Africa, the Caribbean and the Pacific. The negotiations were concerned with the Community offer, set out in Protocol 22 of the Brussels Treaty of Accession, to sign a new Convention of Association, The present Yaoundé Convention is due to expire on January 31. The Conference covered a number of subjects.

2359
A major concern to us was the need to safeguard the interests of the new Commonwealth Associables, and I had to have very serious regard to the dependence of a number of them on their exports of primary products, particularly sugar. The Commonwealth Sugar Agreement is due to expire on December 31 next.
"In the event, the President of the E.E.C., M. Sauvagnargues, was able in his second statement to the Conference to make it quite clear that the British Government has a firm commitment to the import of 1·4 million tons of sugar into the Community. On the other hand, he made it clear that the other members of the E.E.C. cannot accept this commitment until the Community sugar regime has been settled. It was agreed that the Commission of the E.E.C. will seek the views of the A.C.P. countries—the Associates and Associables—on this question. At the end of the Conference, by agreement, Britain issued a unilateral declaration on the subject of our total commitment on this question. I am placing the relevant documents in the Library.
"In the light of the President's statement, the Conference was able to proceed to discussion on a number of issues of great importance to the 44 (the Associates and the Associables), and to make the following progress.
"It recognised the importance of industrial co-operation. This will be the subject of a separate chapter in the Convention.
"It exchanged views on the size of the European Development Fund, and on this point discussions are to continue.
"It agreed to proceed with further work on access for agricultural products, on non-tariff barriers and on rules of origin. The A.C.P. countries attach considerable importance to these points.
"In my view the most important agreement reached concerned the establishment of a scheme to stabilise export earnings. The exports of developing countries associated with, or planning to be associated with, the Community have been subject to substantial fluctuation of price and quantity, particularly the exports of primary products.
2360
It is, of course, extremely difficult for developing countries to formulate or implement development plans when they are deeply uncertain about the future level of their export earnings. The Commission will now immediately begin talks with the relevant producer countries.
"The Conference gave the opportunity for a full and frank dialogue between the countries of the E.E.C. and the A.C.P. The Prime Minister of Jamaica, Mr. Michael Manley, and the Foreign Minister of Jamaica, Mr. P. J. Patterson, who was the Chairman of the Conference, greatly influenced its success. The negotiations will, of course, continue in the coming months."
My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.
12.55 p.m.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, for having repeated that Statement. It is an important Statement for those countries in the Caribbean, and especially for those whose economy depends so largely on sugar. They live in an era of inflation like everyone else, and they have the conflicting interests of the long-term guarantees which were supposed to help them and the rocketing world prices for some of their commodities. I am glad to see that the United Kingdom said that they still regard as a major concern for us the need to safeguard the interests of these new Commonwealth Associables. I heartily endorse that comment. We shall have to study the documents which the noble Lord has placed in the Library, in order to see the full content of his Statement. But there are one or two points that come to mind.
The noble Lord said,
"At the end of the Conference, by agreement, Britain issued a unilateral declaration on the subject of our total commitment …"
and is one to infer from that that there was no uniformity of view between the United Kingdom and its associate members? Can the noble Lord give an assurance that the combined Statement which was issued in June, 1971, after a Conference between the participating countries and ourselves, on our view over the commitment of Europe to the Commonwealth, still stands? The Statement then said they

2361
regarded the E.E.C.'s offer as a firm assurance of a secure and continuing market in the enlarged Community on fair terms for the quantities of sugar covered by the C.S.A. in respect of all the existing developing Member countries. That was important. It will be a great help if the noble Lord will confirm that we still stick to the commitment which we then accepted.
At the bottom of the second page of the Statement it says:
"The Commission will now immediately begin talks with the relevant producer countries".
Am I right in believing that the talks with regard to the sugar commitment of the producing countries and Europe will be particularly between the representatives of those countries and the Commission, and that we will not be participants to those talks? Are we able to influence the outcome of these discussions in any way in the European Community? If I remember correctly, the discussions will only be between the participating countries and the Commission. If that is so, how will we be able to influence Europe to make sure the commitments which we entered into on behalf of the developing countries at the time of our entry negotiations are fulfilled?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for what he has said. We would certainly rest on the 1971 Declaration; indeed, we would hope—as no doubt another Administration, if it had come to power this year, would have hoped—to improve on that if possible. On the related question of our participation in the discussions between the Commission and the producer countries regarding sugar, I would expect that in one way or another we will be participatory in these talks. I agree it is an important question and, with the noble Earl's permission, I will look into this and let him know precisely what we think the position will be. It is of great importance and I am sure that my right honourable friend will recognise this.
On the question of our unilateral declaration, this was a re-statement of our intention to seek to import 1·4 million tons. It must necessarily still be a unilateral statement. We found it neces-
2362
sary and helpful to make this repeated assurance at the conference to the countries concerned that were there. They welcomed the repeated statement of the British intention. It does not mean that any of them were at variance with what we said; indeed, they strongly welcomed it. As to the Community position in relation to a unilateral declaration of trading intention by this country, one must accept that the Commission will have to look at the total position, bearing in mind its own production which is somewhat different in quantity—although I will not say quality. The difference between beet and cane is probably subject to much better jargon than I am able to command at the moment, but I am sure that the noble Earl knows what I have in mind.
The E.E.C will naturally need to bring into consideration when they formulate (shall I say?) their sugar policy their own concern about their own production. Nevertheless, we find it extremely satisfactory that the French President of the Commission, who was there, made a declaration stating that they noted the British unilateral commitment without criticism. It is fair to assume that in so doing he was giving as much encouragement as he could to both the Associates, the Associables and to us to do all we can to safeguard and improve the position in regard to sugar as between those countries and ourselves. I must repeat in fairness to the Commission that they will need to have that and their own Continental position in mind when they formulate their final sugar policy.
1.7 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I had a question on this matter on the Order Paper to-day. The Minister said that he would be repeating a Statement made in another place. I am very grateful to him. First, I want to welcome the agreement in principle for the establishment of the stabilisation of export earnings from the developing countries. This is tremendously important particularly for the developing countries which largely have one-product exports, for they are the poorest. I hope that the acceptance of this in principle will be immediately followed up.
I want also to welcome the United Kingdom's unilateral commitment to the 1,400,000 tons of sugar to come to the

2363
Community. I regret that the other Members of the Community have not immediately taken the same view. I understand that this is largely because of the sugar shortage in the world, and that the argument is being put forward that the Commonwealth countries have not fulfilled their quota to this country. Is that not due to their difficult position because of the oil prices, where they had to sell sugar in the world market, where they could get larger amounts? Is it not also the case that they have promised us that they will fulfil that agreement?
I was in this House—and I refer to what the spokesman from the Opposition Front Bench has said—at the time of the 1971 negotiations, when we all had the impression that a very definite commitment had been made by the European Community to our Commonwealth countries in the Sugar Agreement. In another place, Mr. Rippon, who was engaged in the negotiations, used the rather unusual phrase of "bankable assurances". I hope that the unilateral action which our Government have taken will be followed up by the other Members of the Community.
There were a number of issues which were not settled. One was the European Development Fund for these nations. There is a big margin between what the nations are demanding—400 million—and what the European Commission at present has accepted—175 million. There are continuing discussions on a number of other subjects. As I understand it, they will be renewed in November; but can we have an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will do their utmost to bring about agreements so that the trade and aid arrangements which are due to cease in February may be continued for the benefit of the developing countries?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I can give the assurance for which my noble friend has asked. He has made a number of points which I greatly welcome. I will not deal with them in any detail; they have been covered by the Statement and by one or two things that I have already said. However, on the question of the so-called development fund, which has been raised by him in particular, there is of course naturally a large gap between the applicant coun-
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tries and the donor countries. It always happens in these cases. The applicant countries have put forward a request for a new E.D.F. of something like 8,000 million units of account. This is far in excess—and this must be said and repeated—of what is at all likely to be granted by the donor countries. Nevertheless, every effort will be made to bridge the gap so far as possible.
As to the other points which my noble friend raised, he will find on sugar and the Stabilisation Scheme—which, like him, I particularly welcome, because of the fluctuations which cause havoc with the finances and the economy, including the employment of men in these countries—that the Statement I have just repeated will repay study. If, despite the rising of Parliament, he or any other noble Lord would wish further elucidation of these very important points and would apply to me in another place (if I may so refer to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for the moment), I will do my best to be helpful.

INSURANCE COMPANIES BILL [H.L.]
1.11 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

INSURANCE COMPANIES BILL [H.L.]

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [References are to Bill 61 as amended by (he Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills].
  [Nos. I to 37]
  Clause 2, page 2, line 24, leave out paragraph (e) and insert—
  ' (e) a trade union or employers' association (within the meaning of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974) where the insurance business carried on by the union or association is limited to the provision for its members of provident benefits or strike benefits.'
  Clause 12, page 9, line 4, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
  ' (3) Where a trade union or an employers' association carries on insurance business this Part of this Act does not apply to it as an insurance company if the insurance business is limited to the provision for its members of provident benefits or strike benefits.

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  In this subsection "trade union" and "employers' association" have the same meanings respectively as they have in the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974.'
  Schedule 2, page 69, leave out lines 42 to 45.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will move all three Amendments to the Bill en bloc. This is a pure Consolidation Bill and the effect of these Amendments is to omit references in Clauses 2 and 12 of, and Schedule 2 to, the Bill to the Industrial Relations Act 1971, and to insert references to the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974. My Lords, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1, 2 and 3.
  Moved, That the House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, as it is necessary for the House to adjourn before Royal Assent is notified, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure.
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  House resumed.

ROYAL ASSENT
1.30 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts:

Finance Act,

Appropriation (No. 2) Act,

Town and Country Amenities Act,

Northern Ireland (Young Persons) Act,

Pakistan Act,

Carriage of Passengers by Road Act,

Mines (Working Facilities and Support) Act,

Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act,

Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act,

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Consumer Credit Act,

Control of Pollution Act,

Policing of Airports Act,

Independent Broadcasting Authority (No. 2) Act,

Merchant Shipping Act,

Housing Act,

Housing (Scotland) Act,

Friendly Societies Act,

Solicitors Act,

Railways Act,

Insurance Companies Act,

Road Traffic Act,

Rent Act,

Trade Union and Labour Relations Act,

Rehabilitation of Offenders Act,

Lerwick Harbour Order Confirmation Act,

Ashdown Forest Act,

British Transport Docks Act,

British Waterways Act,

Greater London Council (General Powers) Act,

Thurrock Borough Council Act,

Weymouth and Portland Water Sports Act,

Wrightson NMA Limited Act,

Workington Harbour Act,

Greater London Council (Money) Act,

Orkney County Council Act.

EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES
Seventh, Eighth and Ninth Reports from the Select Committee, read and to be printed.