Lords Sitting of 25 July 1974

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester
The Lord Bishop of Coventry—Took the Oath.

SECURITY FIRMS: GROWTH LIMITS
LORD ROYLE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Crook, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in his name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have plans to introduce legislation to limit the mushroom growth of so-called security firms, as suggested in the paper of Sir Douglas Osmond, the Chief Constable of Hampshire.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has at present no plans to introduce legislation for the licensing of private security organisations.
LORD MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, will the noble Lord take this opportunity to pay tribute to the reputable security firms, like Securicor, which recruit their staff very carefully, and which indeed recruit most of their staff from retired members of the police force?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, I think that many of the employees of these private organisation do most useful work.
LORD ROYLE: My Lords, I am sorry, but I do not know the supplementary questions which my noble friend Lord Crook would have asked.

GIBRALTAR MILITARY AIRFIELD
3.7 p.m.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government to what extent the military airfield at Gibraltar has been used over the last two years (a) by the R.A.F. and (b) by the Air Forces of other NATO powers for training or familiarisation flights; staging purposes; and in participation of NATO or national exercises held in the area.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS): My Lords, during the last two years the airfield at Gibraltar has been used regularly by British military aircraft and occasionally by military aircraft of other NATO Countries. Approximately three-quarters of the total military aircraft movements were training and familiarisation flights or flights in connection with exercises and operations.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that on June 5, 1972, the then Secretary of State for Defence, my noble friend Lord Carrington, sitting below me, stated in a Written Answer:
"Her Majesty's Government agree that Gibraltar holds a key position of strategic importance, and SACEUR shares this view". [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 331, col. 150.]
Would the noble Lord therefore agree that greater use could be made of the military airfield, bearing in mind that the Air Commander's responsibilities in peacetime include participation in NATO and national exercises, and also bearing in mind the maintenance there of support facilities for aircraft staging through Gibraltar?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I certainly agree that the present use of Gibraltar for both military and civilian purposes—the civilian use is rather in excess of the military use—should be maintained; and I see no reason to divert from the Answer given

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to the noble Lord by the noble Lord sitting below him and opposite me.
LORD FOOT: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we are grateful to the noble Lord who asked this Question for identifying Lord Carrington?
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he could give precise figures, as in effect were given in the Third Report of the Expenditure Committee in the 1972–73 Session, where, in relation to Gibraltar, it gave the number of warships of the Royal Navy visiting Gibraltar and also the number of warships from other NATO Powers? One, therefore, had a very definite idea of the extent that Gibraltar was used by the navies of NATO.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, that is a somewhat different question which, if the noble Lord will put it down, either I or my noble friend the Under-Secretary for Defence will endeavour to answer. The present Question relates entirely to the use of Gibraltar by aircraft.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I am sorry to press this point, but what I was asking was whether the information could be given in the same form for aircraft as it has been given for warships.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: Yes, indeed, my Lords. I have a certain amount of information by me now, but perhaps it would be more convenient if I made it available in that form to the noble Lord and possibly for the use of your Lordships generally.

BEEF IMPORTS: G.A.T.T. QUOTA
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how much frozen beef can be imported into the United Kingdom under the GATT levy-free quota during the suspension of the issue of import licences announced in the House on July 17.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY (LORD BESWICK): My Lords, the total United Kingdom share of the GATT quota for
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the levy-free import of frozen beef in 1974 is 11,700 tons, of which about 10,000 tons remain to be used in the period up to the end of 1974. I wish to thank the noble Lord for putting down this Question and I am sorry I was not able to give him a complete answer to his supplementary question last week.
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for the Answer to the Question, which will he of considerable interest to the agricultural press community, may I ask him from which country the greatest amount of this quota of frozen beef is obtained?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, there are a number of countries. It is mainly Australian, and some comes from Argentina and Botswana.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, does not the Minister think that it is better to clear this beef altogether and to let us have free import of beef from wherever we can buy cheaply, instead of putting it into cold storage in the Common Market, losing money and then having to pay for it as we did with butter?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I agree with that, and I think that the headage payment of which I gave details last week will help towards that objective.
LORD ROYLE: My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend could give us any information as to whether the Government have taken a decision on the distribution of this meat, particularly, for example, in the social sphere?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, my noble friend will be referring to the beef already in intervention. The Community are now preparing a draft scheme for the distribution of meat at a reduced price to certain non-profit-making social institutions. Her Majesty's Government will be preparing plans for the implementation of this scheme. The possibility of distributing it to those in receipt of social security benefits is still under consideration.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, could my noble friend tell me whether he is aware that I was unable to ask a pungent question on this matter because, in this mysterious lexicon of acronyms, I have "OATT"? What is it? I presume that it is "GATT".
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am sorry that my noble friend has been prevented from asking one of his special questions. I think that the Order Paper should show "GATT"—the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.

GOVERNMENT STATEMENTS
3.13 p.m.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, with the permission of the House, my noble friend the Leader of the House will be making a Statement on security at a convenient moment after 3.30. My Lords, I hope that it will be for the convenience of the House if I announce that, subject to the progress of business, the House will rise for the Summer Recess on Wednesday, July 31, and will return on Tuesday, October 15. The House will sit at 11 o'clock on Wednesday next.

BIOLOGICAL STANDARDS BILL [H.L.]
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to establish a body corporate having functions relatting to the establishment of standards for, the provision of standard preparations of, and the testing of biological substances; to provide for the transfer of certain property, rights, liabilities and obligations from the Medical Research Council to the Secretary of State for Social Services; and for connected purposes. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a. —(Lord Wells-Pestell.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

LERWICK HARBOUR ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936) deemed to have been read 2a, and reported from the Committee.
ASHDOWN FOREST BILL
Standing Order No. 147 having been suspended, Bill read 3a with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL
Standing Order No. 147 having been suspended, Bill read 3a with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

STANDING ORDERS (PRIVATE BUSINESS)
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. The Amendments to Private Business Standing Orders set out in the Marshalled List are, with the execption of Amendment No. 102, consequential upon the coming into force of the Local Government Act 1972, the Water Act 1973, and the reorganisation of Government Departments. Amendment No. 102 is consequential upon the new Public Business Standing Order No. 16, which provides for the recall of the House. Similar Amendments are being moved to-day in another place. In view of the large number of consequential Amendments, I think that it would be for the convenience of the House if, with your Lordships' leave, I moved Amendments Nos. 1 to 103 en bloc.
Moved, That the Amendments to Private Business Standing Orders be amended as follows:
Standing Order 1
1. Leave out line 2 and insert "the term "community" means a community for the purposes of the Local Government Act 1972".
2. Line 4, leave out "administrative county" and insert "metropolitan county of non-metropolitan county.".
3. Leave out lines 5 and 6 and insert "the term "district" in relation to England means metropolitan district or non-metropolitan district".
4. Leave out line 21.
5. Line 22, leave out "rural" in both places.
6. Line 24, leave out "rural".
7. Line 25, at end insert "and the council of a community or group of communities or the community meeting of a community which has no separate community council".
8. Line 43, at end insert "the term "parish" means a parish for the purposes of the Local Government Act 1972".
9. Line 60, at end insert "the term "water authority" means an authority established in accordance with section 1 of the Water Act 1973, that is to say, a regional water authority or the Welsh National Water Development Authority".
10. Line 66, at end insert "Where the Standing Orders require anything to be deposited with, or delivered or sent to, the proper officer of a local authority, that requirement shall be satisfied by depositing it with or delivering or sending it to, the chief executive of the authority for transmission (where the chief executive is not the proper officer) to that officer."
Standing Order 4A
11. Line 7, after "meeting" insert "or community council or community meeting".
12. Line 10, after "meeting" insert "or community council or community meeting". Leave out "rural".
13. Line 11, after "parish" insert "or community".
14. Line 13, leave out "county borough".
15. Lines 19 and 20, leave out "and county boroughs".
16. Line 25, leave out "rural".
17. Line 27, after "parish" insert "or community".
18. Line 28, after "parish" insert "or community".
19. Line 31, leave out "or county borough"
20. Line 34, leave out "or county borough".
Standing Order 5
21. Lines 4 and 5, leave out "boroughs, and urban and rural".
22. Line 5, leave out "(in the case of rural districts) the". After "parishes" insert "or communities".
23. Line 25, leave out "borough, or urban or rural".
24. Line 26, leave out "(in the case of a rural district) the". After "parish" insert "or community".
25. Lines 30 and 31, leave out "as if it were a borough" and insert "and a London borough as if they were districts".
Standing Order 6
26. Line 8, leave out "borough, or urban or rural".
27. Lines 8 and 9, leave out "(in the case of a rural district) the".
28. Line 9, after "parish" insert "or community".
29. Lines 13 and 14, leave out "as if it were a borough" and insert "and a London borough as if they were districts".
Standing Order 10
30. Line 13, leave out "county borough".
31. Line 20, leave out "and county boroughs".
32. Line 29, leave out "or county borough".
33. Line 33, leave out "or county borough".
Standing Order 16
34. Line 18, leave out "borough, urban or rural". After "district" insert "or London borough".
35. Lines 18 and 19, leave out "(in the case of a rural district) the".
36. Line 19, after "parish" insert "or community".
37. Line 21, leave out "Clerks" and insert "proper officers".
38. Lines 21 and 22, leave out "and Town Clerks of county boroughs".
39. Lines 23, leave out "with the Clerk".
Standing Order 22
40. Line 9, after "the" insert "proper officer".
41. Line 24, after "parish" insert "or community".
42. Line 25, leave out "clerk" and insert "proper officer".
43. Line 28, leave out "clerk" and insert "proper officer".
44. Line 29, after "parish" insert "or community".
45. Line 30, leave out "clerk" and insert "proper officer".
Standing Order 25
46. Line 19, leave out "county borough". Leave out "county" in the second place.
Standing Order 27
47. Line 10, leave out "Clerk" and insert "proper officer".
48. Line 11, leave out "and the Town Clerk of each county borough".
49. Line 19, leave out "Clerk" and insert "proper officer".
50. Line 20, leave out "and with the Town Clerk of each county borough".
51. Leave out line 23.
52. Line 43, leave out "Clerk" and insert "proper officer".
53. Line 44, leave out "or Town Clerk (as the case may be)".
54. Line 46, leave out "Clerk" and insert "proper officer or chief executive".
55. Lines 46 and 47, leave out "and the Town Clerk of each county borough".
56. Line 55, leave out "Clerk" and insert "proper officer or chief executive".
57. Line 90. leave out from "county" to the end of line 91.
Standing Order 30
58. Line 6, leave out "and Industry".
Standing Order 31
59. Line 6, leave out "and Industry".
Standing Order 32
60. Line 11, leave out "River" and insert "Water".
Standing Order 33
61. Line 4, leave out "River" and insert "Water".
Standing Order 36
62. Line 10, leave out "or non-county".
63. Line 11, leave out "Town Clerk of such" and insert "proper officer of the".
64. Line 12, leave out "urban or rural". Leave out "Clerk" and insert "proper officer".
65. Line 14, after "council" insert "or community having a community council". Leave out "Clerk" and insert "proper officer".
66. Line 15, after "parish" insert "or community". Leave out "Clerk" and insert "such officer".
67. Line 17, leave out "comprised in a rural district, and" and insert "or community".
68. Line 18, after "parish" in both places insert "or community".
Standing Order 39
69. Line 4, after "Environment" insert "and at the Home Office".
70. Lines 5 and 6, leave out "and at the Ministry of Posts and Telecommunications".
71. Line 7, leave out "and Industry, the Home Office".
Standing Order 42
72. Line 4, leave out "River" and insert "Water".
Standing Order 43
73. Line 7, leave out "River" and insert "Water".
Standing Order 44
74. Line 13, leave out "Clerk" and insert "proper officer".
75. Line 17, leave out from "meeting" to the end of line 18 and insert "or a community council or a community meeting".
Standing Order 46
76. Line 4, leave out "and Industry".
77. Lines 14 and 15, leave out "borough or urban or rural".
78. Line 15, after "district" insert "or London borough".
79. Line 24, leave out "local".
80. Line 26, leave out "in the case of a rural district".
Standing Order 47
81. Line 28, leave out "boroughs, urban".
82. Lines 28 and 29, leave out "rural parishes in England and Wales" and insert "London boroughs".
Standing Order 61
83. Line 14, leave out "Clerk" and insert "proper officer".
84. Line 15, leave out "and the Town Clerk of every county borough".
85. Line 28, leave out "or county borough".
86. Line 43, leave out from "county" to the end of line 44.
Standing Order 62
87. Lines 12 and 13, leave out "county borough".
Standing Order 65
88. Lines 25 and 26. leave out "county borough".
Standing Order 119
89. Line 2, leave out "borough or urban or rural". After "district" insert "or London borough".
90. Line 3, leave out "or the borough or district" and insert "or the district or borough".
Standing Order 120
91. Line 7, leave out "county road, or along any other".
92. Line 12, leave out from the first county" to the end of line 13.
Standing Order I24 A
93. Line 3, leave out "county".
94. Line 4, leave out "county".
95. line 7, leave out "county".
96. Line 11, leave out "county".
97. Line 15, leave out "county".
98. Line 21, leave out "clerk" and insert "proper officer".
99. Line 26, leave out "county".
Standing Order 140
100. Line 4, leave out "and Industry".
Standing Order 143
101. Lines 2 and 3, leave out "or any municipal borough".
Standing Order 213
102. Line 8, leave out "A sessional order" and insert No. 16 of the Orders of the House relating to public business."
Appendix A
103. Third paragraph, last line but one, leave out "clerk, or other".—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: the said Standing Orders amended accordingly.

SOLICITORS BILL [H.L.]
3.19 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD ELWYN-JONES): My Lords, I understand that no Amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript Amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move, pursuant to Standing Order No. 45(2), that the Order of Commitment be discharged.
My Lords, I should inform the House that this is a pure consolidation Bill. The Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills made a number of Amendments to the Bill which it considered necessary to bring the Bill into conformity with existing law. The Joint Committee was of the opinion that the Bill, as amended, represented existing law and that there is no point to which the attention of Parliament should be drawn. I beg to move that the Order of Recommitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Recommitment be discharged.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been suspended, pursuant to Resolution, Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

TOWN AND COUNTRY AMENITIES BILL
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD): My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen and His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to acquaint the House that they, having been informed of the purport of the Town and Country Amenities Bill, have consented to place their prerogative and interests, so far as they are affected on behalf of the Crown, the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

CONTROL OF POLLUTION BILL [H.L.]
3.22 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered,—(Lord Garnsworthy.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[References are to Bill 50 as first printed for the Commons]
[Nos. 1–49]
Clause 4, page 7, line 2, leave out from "water" to "a" in line 3, and insert "which covers any land above low-water mark of ordinary spring tides and is not water in".
Clause 4, page 7,line 4, leave out from "Act" to end of subsection.
Clause 11, page 15, line 21, at end insert "and to any other prescribed person".
Clause 11,page 16, line 2, at end insert "and to any other prescribed person".
Clause 11,page 16,line 20, leave out "the disposal authority and".
Clause 11,page 16,line 21, leave out "disagree" and insert "to which a proposal is referred by a disposal authority in pursuance of paragraph (c) of subsection (3) of this section requests the disposal authority not to proceed with the proposal or disagrees with the disposal authority".
Clause 11,page 16,line 23, leave out "sub section (3) of this section" and insert "that subsection".
Clause 12, page 17, line 43, at beginning insert "subject to subsection (3) of this section".
Clause 12,page 18, line 19, leave out from "cases" to "shall" in line 20 and insert "; and in any of those cases—
(a) the duty to arrange for the collection of the waste in question which is imposed on the collection authority by subsection (1)(a) of this section shall not arise until a person who controls the waste requests the authority to collect it; and
(b) the authority may recover a reasonable charge for the collection of the waste from the person who made the request in respect of it in pursuance of the preceding paragraph.
(3A) A person at whose request waste other than household waste is collected in pursuance of the preceding provisions of this section".
Clause 12,page 19, line 4, after "pipes", insert "and associated works".
Clause 12,line 7, after first "pipes", insert "or associated works".
leave out lines 10 to 13, and insert—
"(5A) Parts V and VI of Schedule 3 to the Water Act 1945 (which relate to the laying

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of mains and the breaking up of streets) shall apply in relation to pipes and associated works provided or to be provided in pursuance of paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection as those Parts apply in relation to water mains and pipes but as if—

(a) sections 19(4) and 21 of that Schedule (which relate to the erection of street notices and the laying of service pipes) were omitted, and in section 22 of that Schedule the words "which they are authorised to lay" were omitted; and

(b) for any reference to undertakers or limits of supply there were substituted respectively a reference to the authority in question and the area of the authority; and

(c) for the reference to the special Act in section 25(4) of that Schedule there were substituted a reference to this subsection;

and the Pipe-lines Act 1962 shall not apply to pipes or associated works provided or to be provided in pursuance of paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection."
Clause 12,line 33, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—
"(b) for subsection (5A) there shall be substituted the following subsection:—
"(5A) Sections 2, 3, 4 and 41 of the Sewerage (Scotland) Act 1968 (which relate to the maintenance etc. of public sewers and other works and the breaking open of streets etc.) shall apply in relation to pipes and associated works provided or to be provided in pursuance of paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection as those sections apply in relation to public sewers but as if—

(a) the said section 2 conferred a power, and did not impose a duty, on a local authority to do the things mentioned in that section; and

(b) in the said section 4, the words from "but, before any person" to the end were omitted;

and the Pipe-lines Act 1962 shall not apply to pipes and associated works provided or to be provided in pursuance of paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection"."
Clause 12,line 43, after "Crown", insert "but exclude waste as to which the Commissioners executing the Crown Estate Paving Act 1851 (which among other things relates to premises in the Regent's Park) make arrangements for its collection".
Clause 13. page 21, line 6, after "unless" insert ", in the case of a receptacle for commercial waste".
Clause 14, page 22, line 29, leave out from "be" to end of subsection and insert "dealt with under arrangements made by the collection authority for the purpose of enabling the waste to be used again or substances to be reclaimed from it".
Clause 14, page 22,line 36, after "for" insert "sorting or".
Clause 14,page 23, line 2. at end insert "and".
Clause 14,page 23,line 5, leave out from second "it" to end of subsection.
Clause 14,page 23,line 8. leave out "Subsection (5)" and insert "Subsections (5) and (5A)".
Clause 14,page 23,line 9, after "reference", insert "in paragraph (a) of the said subsection (5)".
Clause 14,page 23,line 13, after "authority" insert "or a collection authority".
Clause 14,page 23,line 27, at end insert —
"(6A) A collection authority and the relevant disposal authority may enter into an agreement for the making by either authority to the other of such payments as may be determined by or under the agreement in respect of waste collected by the collection authority in pursuance of section 12 of this Act, including, without prejudice to the generality of the preceding provisions of this subsection, an agreement for the making of payments to the collection authority in respect of such arrangements as are mentioned in subsection (2) of this section."
Clause 14,page 23,line 28, at beginning insert "Except as otherwise agreed in pursuance of the preceding subsection,".
Clause 14,page 23,line 30, leave out from "such" to end of paragraph and insert "sums as are needed to defray the reasonable cost to the disposal authority of disposing of commercial and industrial waste delivered to the disposal authority by the collection authority in pursuance of this section and".
Clause 14,page 23,line 44, after "arising", insert "in pursuance of paragraph (a) of this subsection as to what cost is reasonable or".
Clause 14,page 24, line 4, after "(4)", insert "(6A)".
Clause 14,page 24,line 10, leave out from first "authority" to end of paragraph and insert "at a place specified in the directions (which must be in or within a reasonable distance from the collection authority's area) to the water authority nr to another person so specified;"
Clause 14,page 24,line 17, at beginning insert
"(8A) Any question arising in pursuance of paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection as to whether a place is within a reasonable distance from a collection authority's area shall, in default of agreement between the collection authority and the water authority in question, be determined by arbitration,".
Clause 14,page 24,line 17, leave out "this" and insert "that"
Clause 15, page 24, line 38, at end insert "and"
Clause 15, page 24, line 41, leave out from second "it" to end of subsection.
Clause 15,Page 25, line 1, leave out subsection (2) and insert —
"(2) Subsections (5) and (5A) of section 12 of this Act shall have effect in relation to a Scottish disposal authority as if the reference in paragraph (a) of the said subsection (5) to the collection of waste in pursuance of that section included the disposal of waste in pursuance of this section and the disposal of anything produced from waste belonging to the authority."
Clause 15,Page 25,line 37, leave out from "authority" to end of paragraph and insert
"at a place specified in the directions (which must be in or within a reasonable distance

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from the collection authority's area) to the regional council or another person so specified;"
Clause 15,Page 25,line 44, at beginning insert—
"(4A) Any question arising in pursuance of paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection as to whether a place is within a reasonable distance from a collection authority's area shall, in default of agreement between the collection authority and the regional council in question, be determined by arbitration,"
Clause 15,Page 25,line 45, leave out "this" and insert "that"
After Clause 19, insert the following new Clause
Reclamation of waste
"( ) 'Without prejudice to the powers of disposal authorities apart from this section, any disposal authority may—

(a) do such things as the authority considers appropriate for the purpose of—

(i) enabling waste belonging to the authority, or belonging to another person who requests the authority to deal with it in pursuance of this section, to be used again, or

(ii) enabling substances to be reclaimed from such waste;

(b) buy or otherwise acquire waste with a view to its being used again or to the reclamation of substances from it; and

(c) use, sell or otherwise dispose of waste belonging to the authority or anything produced from such waste"

After the clause last inserted, insert the following new Clause
Production of heat and electricity from waste etc.
"(1) A disposal authority may, subject to subsections (2) and (3) of this section,—

(a) use waste belonging to the authority for the purpose of producing from it heat or electricity or both;

(b) establish and operate, within or outside its area, such generating stations and other installations as the authority thinks fit for the purpose aforesaid; and

(c) where the authority operates an installation in which waste is usually used as the main fuel for the purpose of producing heat or electricity, then—

(i) in the case of an installation for producing heat, use other fuel in addition to waste to produce the heat, and

(ii) in the case of an installation for producing electricity, use other fuel to assist in burning the waste to produce the electricity,

and, in an emergency, use other fuel instead of waste to produce the heat or electricity; and a disposal authority may use, sell or otherwise dispose of any heat produced by the authority by virtue of this section.
(2) A disposal authority shall not be entitled to make any arrangements with a view to the
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production from waste of electricity for use otherwise than by the authority unless—

(a) the authority has had consultations about the arrangements with the Central Electricity Generating Board and with any Electricity Board proposed to be specified in the arrangements in pursuance of paragraph (b) of the following subsection; and

(b) the arrangements are approved by the Secretary of State and are in accordance with any conditions which he attaches to his approval.

In the application of this subsection to Scotland the reference to the Central Electricity Generating Board shall be omitted.
(3) Where a disposal authority produces electricity by virtue of this section the authority—

(a) may use any of the electricity at the installation at which it was produced and on any premises occupied by the authority in connection with the installation, but shall not use any of it elsewhere;

(b) may sell any of the electricity, on such terms as are specified in the relevant arrangements made in pursuance of the preceding subsection, to any Electricity Board (within the meaning of the Electricity Act 1947) which is so specified, but shall not sell or otherwise dispose of any of it to any other person;

and it shall be the duty of any Electricity Board so specified to buy electricity from the authority in accordance with the said arrangements.
(4) Subsection (5) of section 12 of this Act (except paragraph (b) of that subsection) and subsection (5A) of that section (except so much of it as relates to the Pipe-lines Act 1962) shall have effect in relation to a disposal authority as if the reference in the said subsection (5) to the collection of waste in pursuance of that section included the conveying of heat produced by the authority by virtue of this section and of air, steam and water heated by such heat.
(5) It shall be the duty of a disposal authority by which an installation for producing heat is operated in pursuance of this section in any year to furnish to the Secretary of State, as soon as practicable after the end of that year, such particulars relating to the installation and heat produced at it as are prescribed.
(6) Nothing in this section (except the restrictions imposed by subsections (2) and (3) shall be construed as prejudicing any power exercisable by a disposal authority apart from this section '."
Clause 20, page 30, line 29, after "land" insert "and may enter into an agreement with such a person for the payment by him of charges in respect of the cleaning".
Clause 20, page 30,line 33, leave out "this section" and insert—
"the preceding provisions of this section and in section (Prohibition of parking to facilitate street cleaning) of this Act—
"highway" means highway maintainable at the public expense within the meaning of the Highways Act 1959;"
Clause 20, page 30,line 40, at end insert:
"in this section and in section (Prohibition of parking to facilitate street cleaning) of this Act".
Clause 20, page 30,line 41, leave out 'in subsection (1)'.
After Clause 20 insert the following new Clause
Prohibition of parking to facilitate street cleaning
"'(1) Where in the case of any part of a highway (hereafter in this section referred to as "the relevant area") the highway authority for the relevant area or the local authority in whose area the relevant area is situated considers that, in order to facilitate the cleaning of the relevant area on a particular day (hereafter in this section referred to as "the relevant day"), it is appropriate to prohibit the parking of vehicles in the relevant area during certain hours of the relevant day, the authority may give notice in accordance with the following provisions of this section prohibiting such parking.
(2) Such a notice must specify the relevant area, the relevant day and the hours in question and must be in such form and contain such other information as are prescribed; and subject to paragraphs (a) and (b) of the following subsection a copy of the notice must—

(a) be served in accordance with regulations on the occupier of any premises adjoining the relevant area and on any prescribed person; and

(b) be conspicuously displayed in accordance with regulations at places in the relevant area.

(3) Regulations may provide—

(a) that such a notice which is served in a prescribed manner in respect of any premises shall be treated for the purposes of this section as served on the occupier of the premises;

(b) that a failure to serve or display a notice as required by virtue of this section apart from the regulations shall in prescribed circumstances be disregarded for the purposes of this section; and

(c) for the covering up of traffic signs and parking meters on the relevant day or any part of it, but without prejudice to the effect of the notice in question if regulations made in pursuance of this paragraph are not observed.

(4) Regulations may also provide that sections 20, 52 and 53 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967 (which among- other things provide for the removal, storage and disposal of vehicles left on roads in contravention of a statutory prohibition) shall have effect, in relation to any vehicle which is or was standing on any part of a highway while parking on that part is or was prohibited by virtue of this section, with such modifications as are prescribed.
(5) If, either before or during the hours on the relevant day which are specified in a notice given by an authority as mentioned in subsection (1) of this section, the authority displays
1872
such further notices in the relevant area and takes such other steps (if any) as are prescribed, the prohibition on parking attributable to the notice so given shall not come into force or, if it is already in force, shall cease to be in force.
(6) It shall be the duty of the highway authority for any part of a highway and of the local authority in whose area the part is situated to co-operate with each other in performing the functions conferred on them by virtue of this section; and where a highway authority or a local authority gives notice as mentioned in subsection (1) of this section in respect of any part of a highway for which it is the highway authority or, as the case may be, which is within its area, any other authority which is the highway authority for that part or which is the local authority within whose area that part is situated shall, with the approval of the authority which gave the notice, be entitled to act in pursuance of this section as if the other authority had given similar notice.
(7) Where any parking in the relevant area is, by virtue of a notice given as mentioned in subsection (1) of this section, prohibited during specified hours on the relevant day, no right of action shall accrue to any person by reason of the fact that all or some of the cleaning of the relevant area which the highway authority or, as the case may be, the local authority proposes to do or has done during those hours is not cleaning which that authority has or had power to do if the other of those authorities has or had power to do it.
(8) Any reference in the preceding provisions of this section to a part of a highway includes any such part on which the parking of vehicles is, apart from this section, authorised by virtue of any enactment whether on payment or free of charge; and where the parking of vehicles on such a part is prohibited by virtue of this section a person shall not be entitled to recover any sum paid by him in respect of the parking of a vehicle there."
After Clause 22 insert the following new Clause
Outfall pipes for sewage disposal works
"( ) '(1) Parts V and VI of Schedule 3 to the Water Act 1945 (which relate to the laying of mains and the breaking up of streets) shall apply in relation to outfall pipes and associated works which are provided or to be provided by a water authority for sewage disposal works belonging to the authority as those Parts apply in relation to water mains and pipes but as if in those Parts there were made the modifications specified in paragraphs (a) to (c) of section 12 (5A) of this Act.
(2) This section does not apply to Scotland'."
After Clause 23 insert the following new Clause
Supplementary provisions relating to pipes
( ) (1) Where an authority provides pipes in pursuance of section 12(5), 14(5) or 15(2) of this Act or subsection (4) of section (Production of heat and electricity from waste etc.) or section (Outfall pipes for

1873
sewage disposal works) of this Act, it shall be the duty of the authority—

(a) except where the authority is a collection authority and the pipes are situated in its area, to send to the collection authority in whose area the pipes are siutated a map in the prescribed form showing the location of the pipes; and

(b) where the authority is a collection authority and the pipes are situated in its area, to prepare such a map;

and it shall be the duty of an authority by which a map is received in pursuance of paragraph (a) of this subsection or is prepared in pursuance of paragraph (b) of this subsection to secure that a copy of the map is available at its principal offices for inspection by the public free of charge at all reasonable hours.
In the application of this subsection to Scotland, the words "the authority is a collection authority and" in paragraphs (a) and (b) shall be omitted.
(2) Section 25 of the Public Health Act 1936 (under which the erection of buildings over a sewer or drain may be prevented or controlled by a local authority or, on appeal, by a magistrates' court) shall have effect as if references to a drain included any pipe provided as mentioned in the preceding subsection and as if the reference to the map of sewers required by that Act to be kept deposited at the offices of an authority included any map required by the preceding subsection to be kept available at the offices of the authority.
(3) Section 21 of the Sewerage (Scotland) Act 1968 (under which the erection of buildings over a sewer vested in a local authority may be prevented or controlled by the authority or, on appeal, by the sheriff) shall have effect as if the reference to a sewer vested in a local authority included any pipe provided as mentioned in subsection (1) of this section.
(4) References to pipes in the preceding provisions of this section include associated works'."
Clause 25, page 34, line 7, at end insert—
""associated works", in relation to pipes, means any of the following connected with the pipes, namely, any valve, filter, stockcock, pump, inspection chamber and manhole and such other works as are prescribed;"
Clause 25, page 34,line 34, at end insert "(disregarding the amendment made by section 13(2) of the Caravan Sites Act 1968)"
Clause 25,page 36, line 18, at end insert:
"In this subsection "sewage" includes matter in or from a privy within the meaning of section 12(4) of this Act."
line 20, leave out "references to waste in this part of this Act do not include" and insert "nothing in this part of this Act applies to".
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, it is my pleasure to bring this measure back to this House after its passage through another place. At its earlier stages, your Lordships devoted a great
1874
deal of time and trouble to close examination of the Bill, so the House may well feel it unnecessary to-day to go into too much detail. A considerable number of further Amendments have been made in another place, but many of these Amendments reflect earlier discussions and promises given in this House, and I venture to think that almost all of them will immediately commend themselves to your Lordships. Against this background I propose to speak very briefly to the Commons Amendments, in moving that this House do agree with the said Amendments. If convenient to the House, I shall speak briefly to substantial groups of Amendments at the same time. But if any noble Lord wishes to raise any question on any of the Amendments, I shall be happy to try to explain them in more detail.
Accordingly, my Lords, I start by moving that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 49. I would draw attention particularly to the two new clauses conferring powers on local authorities to undertake reclamation of wastes, and to generate heat or electricity from the burning of wastes. These clauses fulfil undertakings given in this House and will, I am sure, be welcome to many noble Lords who take an interest in reclamation and utilisation of wastes. There are also related Amendments and two clauses concerned with the laying of pipes for the transportation of waste, sludge and heat. Another new clause in Part I that may be of interest is the one giving new powers to the street cleaning authorities to get cars removed from streets on the days when cleaning is to take place. It is increasingly difficult for local authorities to carry out cleaning properly when streets are crowded with cars. This power will enable them to ask owners to move their cars and, if necessary, to move them while the cleaning takes place.
Apart from these new clauses, the other Amendments to Part I are mainly concerned with minor clarifications and improvements of the new procedures. The definition of "land" in Clause 4 is improved. The procedure for disposal authorities' own disposal sites is sharpened, provisions about charging are clarified, and various definitions—including the definition of sewage—are improved. My Lords, I beg to move that

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this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 49.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Garnsworthy..)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[Nos. 50–90.]
Clause 26, page 37, line 4, at end insert"; or
(c) any solid waste matter to enter a stream or restricted waters"
Clause 26, page 37,line 20, at end insert: "any prescribed enactment, or",
Clause 26, page 37,line 43, leave out "paragraph (e)"
Clause 26,page 38, line 12, after "(b)" insert "or (c)"
Clause 26,page 38,line 15, after "stream" insert "or restricted waters"
Clause 26,page 38,line 23, at end insert "or restricted waters"
page 39, line 7, leave out paragraph (b)
Clause 26,page 38,line 14, after second "of" insert "paragraph (a) or (b) of"
Clause 26,page 38,line 21, after "and" insert "a person guilty of an offence by virtue of paragraph (c) of that subsection shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £200.
7A".
Clause 26,page 38,line 23, leave out "this section" and insert "the preceding subsection".
Clause 28, page 42, line 17, at end insert—
"(1A) The Secretary of State may by order provide that any byelaws specified in the order which were made by virtue of section 5(1)(c) of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Act 1951 (which, as extended in pursuance of section 6 of that Act, relates to the keeping on streams and other waters of vessels provided with sanitary appliances) or of section 25(1)(c) of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) (Scotland) Act 1951 (which makes corresponding provision with respect to streams in Scotland) shall have effect, with much modifications (if any) as are so specified, as if made by virtue of the preceding subsection."
Clause 28,page 44, line 34, at end insert "and"
line 39, leave out from "situated" to end of subsection.
line 46, at end insert "and a port health authority shall have power to make such arrangements with a water authority as are mentioned in subsection (7) of this section"
Clause 31, page 48, line 32, at end insert
"(2A) Where notice of an application is published by a water authority in pursuance of subsection (1)(a) of this section, the authority shall be entitled to recover the cost of publication from the applicant".
Clause 36, page 55, line 30, leave out from beginning to "particulars" in line 31 and
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insert "It shall be the duty of water authorities to maintain, in accordance with regulations, registers containing prescribed"
Clause 37, page 56, line 19, leave out from "and" to "shall" in line 21 and insert "paragraphs (a) to (c) and (e) of subsection (1) of the preceding section"
Clause 37, page 56,line 36, leave out "the said regulations" and insert "those paragraphs"
Clause 37, page 56,line 45, leave out "regulations made by virtue of"
Clause 37, page 57, line 9, leave out "regulations" and insert "subsection (1)(b) or (c)"
Clause 38, page 57, line 27, leave out from "which" to end of paragraph and insert
"does not contain express provision enabling the authority to terminate the agreement, so far as it relates to discharges of trade effluent into the sewer of the authority, whether or not there is a breach of the agreement by a person other than the authority;".
Clause 39, page 59, line 8, after "by" insert "a notice giving".
Clause 41, page 62, line 21, leave out from "in" to "nothing" in line 23 and insert "subsections (1) and (2) of section 33 of this Act; but—
(a)where in the performance of that duty a notice is served in consequence of which compensation would have been payble in pursuance of subsection (4) of that section if the notice had been served by virtue of subsection (3) of that section, compensation shall be so payable as if the notice had been so served; and
(b)"
line 27, after "matter" insert "or any solid waste matter".
page 63, line 20, at end insert';"or
(c) if he is a person to whom compensation is payable by virtue of subsection (3) of this section in respect of a consent to which the operations in question relate.".
Clause 42, page 64, line 3, at end insert—
"(3) A port health authority shall have power to make arrangements with a water authority for the purposes of any of the preceding provisions of this section."
Clause 44, page 65, line 5, leave out "(which is" and insert "or section 24 of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) (Scotland) Act 1951 (which are"
Clause 44, page 65,line 8, leave out subsection (5).
Clause 47, page 67, line 13, leave out from beginning to "appeals" in line 14 and insert '—

"(a) shall include provision for".

Clause 47,page 67, line 17, at beginning insert "may include provision".
Clause 48, page 68, line 11, leave out from "section" to "appeals" in line 12 and insert '—

"(a) shall include provision for".

Clause 47,page 67,line 15, at beginning insert "may include provision".
Clause 49, page 68, line 26, leave out from "Any" to "consent" in line 27 and insert "entry of matter into a stream or controlled waters which—
(a) is authorised by a"
Clause 49, page 68,line 29, after "subject" insert; or
(b) is a consequence of an act which is so authorised and in accordance with such conditions"
Clause 51, page 69, line 12, at end insert:
"'restricted waters'" means controlled waters in—
(a) areas designated by regulations as tidal rivers for the purposes of this definition; and
(b) other areas of a kind prescribed for the purposes of this definition as areas in which, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, vessels commonly lie at moorings in close proximity to one another;"
leave out lines 16 to 25 and insert:
"' in the area of a water authority which is specified, as water which is used or is expected by the authority to be used for any purpose, in a document which is in a form prescribed for the purposes of this definition and contains prescribed particulars and of which a copy is kept available, and has for not less than one month been kept available, at the principal office of the authority for inspection by the public free of charge during office hours;".
Clause 51, page 69,line 29, at beginning insert—
"subject to subsection (2A) of this section,"
Clause 51, page 69,line 35, at end insert "and".
Clause 51, page 69,line 37, leave out from "waters" to end of subsection.
Clause 51,Page 70, line 14, at end insert—
"(2A) Regulations may provide that any prescribed lake, loch or pond which does not discharge into a stream, or that any lake, loch or pond of a prescribed description which does not discharge into a stream shall be a stream for the purposes of this Part of this Act."
Clause 51,Page 70line 34, at end insert—" (5) Section 25(5) of this Act shall have effect in relation to this Part of this Act as if for any reference to Part I of this Act there were substituted a reference to this Part of this Act."
3.25 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 50 to 90.
The more significant Amendments in Part II of the Bill are, first, a group of 12 Amendments which concern the creation of a new general offence of depositing
1878
solid waste matter in water; and, secondly, two Amendments to Clause 41 which were made to meet the criticism that measures in this clause bore too harshly on the discharger.
The first group of 12 Amendments dealing with solid waste matter makes it an offence to put objects such as old prams, bicycles and so forth into water, and litter and rubbish such as cigarette packets. These are not poisonous, noxious or polluting in the strict sense and are therefore not covered by the general offence of waiter pollution as originally drafted in Clause 26, although there was provision for bye-law control. The powers of water authorities under Clause 41 to forestall and remedy pollution of water are also extended to enable them to take steps to prevent rubbish getting into water and to remove it when it is thrown in none the less.
The two Amendments Nos. 72 and 74 to Clause 41 have the effect of changing the way that costs fall in certain circumstances where pollution injurious to the flora or fauna of a stream has been caused by a consented discharge. Under the clause as originally drafted, when a consent was revoked or varied because the discharge caused pollution injurious to flora or fauna in a stream the discharger was entitled to no compensation for early revocation or variation of a consent before its normal term, and also had to bear the costs of restoring the stream. The Government understood that dischargers would prefer this to be the case than that water authorities should devise very stringent, perhaps unnecessarily stringent, consent conditions to make quite sure that no injurious pollution occurred. Representations from industry have indicated, however, that they feel that the arrangements should apply to Clause 41 cases that are set out in Clause 34 for compensation where, broadly speaking, the water authority has made a mistake and granted too relaxed a consent, having regard to foreseeable circumstances.
The first Amendment therefore makes this change. The second provides that where compensation is payable the water authority should also meet the costs of restoration of the stream. The other Amendments to Part II and its associated provisions are largely a matter of

1879
improving and in some cases strengthening the provisions as they left your Lordships' House, often after consideration of points made by your Lordships. My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 50 to 90.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Garnsworthy.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[Nos. 91 to 100.]
Clause 55, page 73, line 36, after "demolition", insert "or dredging."
Clause 55,page 74, line 17, leave out paragraph (c) and insert—
"(c) before specifying any particular methods or plant or machinery, to the desirability in the interests of any recipients of the notice in question of specifying other methods or plant or machinery which would be substantially as effective in minimising noise and more acceptable to them;"
Clause 55,page 76, line 30, after "purposes" insert:
", by a water authority in the exercise of any of its functions."
Clause 55,page 78, line 9, at end insert: "in accordance with regulations."
Clause 55,page 78,line 40, leave out subsection (8) and insert—
"(8) Provision may be made by regulations—
(a) for determining, or for authorising the Secretary of State to determine, the methods by which noise levels are to be measured for the purposes of any provision of this section and the three following sections; and
(b) for enabling noise levels calculated in accordance with the regulations, or in accordance with the directions of the Secretary of State, to be treated for those purposes as measured by a method determined in pursuance of the preceding paragraph".
Clause 63, page 82, line 10, leave out "in making" and insert ", before he makes."
Clause 63, page 82,line 11, leave out "ensure" and insert:
"consult persons appearing to him to represent producers and users of plant machinery with a view to ensuring".
Clause 68, page 85, line 43, leave out from beginning to "any" in line 1 on page 86 and insert "structural alteration, maintenance or repair of any railway line or siding or".
Clause 68,Page 86, line 3, at end insert—
"(1A) The area of a local authority which includes part of the seashore shall also include for the purposes of this Part of this Act, except sections 57 to 62 the territorial sea lying seawards from that part of the shore; and
(a) any questions as to whether a place is within the area of a local authority by virtue
1880
of this subsection shall be determined by the Secretary of State; and
(b) this Part of this Act (except sections 57 to 62 and this subsection) shall have effect, in relation to any area included in the area of a local authority by virtue of this subsection—

(i) as if references to premises and the occupier of premises included respectively a vessel and the master of a vessel, and

(ii) with such other modifications, if any, as are prescribed".

page 86, line 3, at end insert—
not confer functions on port health authorities".
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 91 to 100. The most significant change to Part III is the Amendment to Clause 58 (No. 95). This concerns the method of measuring noise levels in noise abatement zones. In some circumstances it may be very difficult or impossible to measure the noise from a particular source because it is confused with noise from other sources. In such circumstances, it may be necessary to calculate the noise levels from the particular source from information about the nature of the noise source, and such other data as may be available. The Amendment enables the Secretary of State to make regulations permitting calculation instead of measurement in certain circumstances.
Other Amendments to Part III enable authorities to control noise from vessels where this affects people on the land, for example from dredging operations (Nos. 91 and 99). The position of Port Health Authorities in relation to noise is made clear by Amendment No. 100. There are a few other small Amendments in this part concerning consultations and definition (97 and 98).
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 91 to 100.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[Nos. 101 to 104]
After Clause 72 insert the following new clause:
"Cable burning
—(1) A person who burns insulation from a cable with a view to recovering metal from

1881
the cable shall be guilty of an offence under this subsection unless the place at which he does so is a work registered in pursuance of section 9 of the Alkali Act.
(2) Section 16A of the Alkali Act (which, as amended by this Act, provides that certain offences under that Act shall be punishable on summary conviction by a fine not exceeding £400 or £50 a day in the case of certain continuing offences and that proceedings for the offences shall not be brought in England and Wales except by an inspector or with the consent of the Secretary of State) shall apply to an offence under the preceding subsection as it applies to the offences mentioned in that section.".
Clause 73, page 90, line 30, at end insert: "or by exercising the powers conferred on the authority by subsection 1(a) of this section
Clause 76, page 93, line 31, leave out "of" and insert "containing".
(1)"
Clause 76, page 93,line 35. at end insert: "and
(ii) such information (if any) as the Secretary of State may determine, or as may be determined by or under regulations, with respect to any appeal in pursuance of the preceding section which was against a notice served by the authority and which the Secretary of State did not dismiss".
Clause 78, page 94, leave out lines 32 to 35.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 101 to 104. The chief change in Part IV is in the new clause (No. 101) dealing with cable burning. The recovery of metal by burning the insulation of cable is a process registrable under the Alkali Act. This new clause removes a doubt whether burning done in the open is covered by that Act, and makes sure that it can be properly regulated.
The Amendments to Clause 76 (Nos. 103, 103A) fulfil an undertaking given to my noble friend Lady White. The public registers of information collected will include basic information on successful appeals under Clause 75 and can, at the Secretary of State's discretion, include more details about appeals on grounds of excessive costs. Two further Amendments (Nos. 102 and 104) deal with drafting points.
I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 101 to 104.
Moved, That this House does agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 101 to 104.—(Lord Garnsworthy.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[Nos. 105 to 137]
Clause 84, page 98, line 15, leave out "in doing any work".
Clause 84, page 98,line 23, leave out "in doing any work".
Clause 94, page 105, line 32, leave out "or" and insert "and".
After Clause 95 insert the following new clause
Power to give effect to international agreements
"(1)(1) Regulations may provide that any provision of this Act, except this section, shall have effect with such modifications as are prescribed with a view to enabling the Government of the United Kingdom to give effect to any provision made by or under any international agreement to which the Government is for the time being a party.
(2) The Secretary of State may make, to the Commission established by the Convention for the Prevention of Marine Pollution from Land-based Sources which was signed at Paris on behalf of the Government of the United Kingdom on 4th June, 1974, such payments towards the expenses of the Commission as he may with the approval of the Treasury determine".
Clause 98, page 108, line 33, after "State", insert—
" "trade effluent" includes any liquid (either with or without particles of matter in suspension in it) which is discharged from premises used for carrying on any trade or industry, other than surface water and domestic sewage, and for the purposes of this definition any premises wholly or mainly used (whether for profit or not) for agricultural or horticultural purposes or for scientific research or experiment shall be deemed to be premises used for carrying on a trade;".
Clause 99, page 109, line 39, at end insert:
"(6A) For any reference in this Act to a port health authority there shall be substituted a reference to a port local authority constituted under Part X of the Public Health (Scotland) Act 1897."
Clause 101, page 110, line 22, at end add "or relates to trade effluent".
Clause 102, page 110, line 26, after "and", insert—"(a)".
Clause 102, page 110,line 30, at end insert:
"(b) any provision appointing a day in pursuance of this subsection may be revoked or varied by an order made by the Secretary of State which comes into force before that day."
Clause 102, page 110,line 33, leave out subsection (4).
Schedule 2, page 115, leave out lines 33 to 41.
Schedule 3, page 119, line 2, at end insert—
The Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1923
4A. In section 9(5) of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1923 (which provides that certain activities authorised by that section

1883
shall not constitute an offence under provisions which include section 2(1)(a) of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Act 1951) for the words 'section 2(1)(a) of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Act 1951' there shall be substituted the words "and section 26(1)(a) of the Control of Pollution Act 1974'.
at end insert—
The Public Health Act 1936
4B. In section 3(1)(b) of the Public Health Act 1936 (under which an order constituting a port health authority may, among other things, assign to the authority any functions conferred on a local authority by that Act), after the words 'this Act' there shall be inserted the words 'or the Control of Pollution Act 1974'.
4C. Sections 79 and 80 of that Act (which relate to the removal of noxious matter, manure and refuse from premises) shall cease to have effect.'
Clause 102, page 110,line 19, at end insert—
"The Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Act 1951
7A. In section 9 of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Act 1951 (which provides that acts done for scientific and certain other purposes shall not constitute an offence under Part I of the Act), after the words ' this Part of this Act ' there shall be inserted the words 'or of section 26(1)(a) of the Control of Pollution Act 1974'."
Clause 102,page 120, line 10, at end insert—"and in section 12(1)(ii) of that Act (which authorises the disclosure in connection with the execution of that Act of information of which the disclosure is restricted by that section)".
Clause 102,page 120,line 11, at end insert—
'The Public Health Act 1961
13A. At the end of section 34(5) of the Public Health Act 1961 (which among other things provides that ' rubbish ' in that section does not include material accumulated in the course of business) there shall be inserted the words 'or waste deposited in accordance with a disposal licence in force under Part I of the Control of Pollution Act 1974'.

"38 & 39 Vict. c. 55.

The Public Health Act 1875.

Section 148, but not so as to affect any agreement in force, under that section."

Section 148,line 17, column 3, at end insert—

"In section 24, the words "the immediately preceding section or under"."

The London Government Act 1963
13B. In section 41(1)(b) of the London Government Act 1963 (which enables the functions, rights and liabilities of a local authority under any of the provisions there mentioned to be assigned to the port health authority for the Port of London), after the words 'section 87 of this Act' there shall be inserted the words 'and under any provision of the Control of Pollution Act 1974'.
page 121, line 7, after first "times" insert "free of charge by persons resident in the authorities' areas and on payment by other persons".
page 121,line 10, at end insert "and for the words from 'persons resident' onwards there shall be substituted the words 'any person' ".
page 121,line 10, at end insert—
(2) In section 23 of that Act, for subsection (3) (by which section 76 of the Public Health Act 1936, which is repealed by this Act, is applied for the purposes of that section) there shall be substituted the following subsection—
'(3) A local authority may—

(a) provide places for the deposit of anything removed by them under subsection (1) of this section;

(b) provide plant and apparatus for the treatment or disposal of anything deposited at such a place; and

(c) sell or otherwise dispose of any such thing'."

line 16, at end insert—
'20A. For the purposes of section 14 of the Water Act 1973 (under which, among other things, functions of local authorities with respect to sewerage and sewage disposal, including certain functions under Part XII of the Public Health Act 1936, were transferred to water authorities), section 306 of the said Act of 1936 (which related to the compulsory purchase of land and was contained in the said Part XII) shall have effect from 31st March 1974 as if that section had not been repealed by the Local Government Act 1972.'
page 121,line 17, leave out "the Water Act 1973" and insert "that Act".
page 121,line 34, after "26(6)" insert "or 28(1)".
page 121,line 37, column 3, after "1" insert "in paragraph 3 the words "seventy-nine".
page 124, line 33, column 3, leave out "(3) and"."
page 125, line 7, column 3, after "14" insert "in paragraph 4 the words "79, 80" and".
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 105 to 137. Amendments Nos. 105 to 137 mainly concern miscellaneous small points on Parts V and VI and the Schedules. I have already referred to one or two of these. The only additional Amendment to which I ought perhaps to draw the House's attention is No. 108 which is a new clause enabling the Secretary of State to make regulations modifying any provision of this Bill in order to give effect to any internal agreement in the pollution field. The immediate objective here is to enable us to give full effect to the recent Paris Convention for the prevention of pollution from land-based sources, but it may also prove useful in dealing with future international agreements.
I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 105 to 137.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 105 to 137.—[Lord Garnsworthy.]
3.35 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, for his explanation of these Amendments put in another place. I am very glad to see them; a great many, as he rightly said, meet points raised in this House. This is particularly pleasing because this is a Bill which has attracted an enormous amount of interest in this House, and on which many of your Lordships who are experts in the field of environment have taken part. This is a Bill on which there has been no disagreement among us on the aims, and if there has been a disagreement it has been either on the way to achieve them or the speed with which they should be achieved. I am very glad to think we shall now very soon see this Bill on the Statute Book.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, in view of the able letter I received yesterday
1886
evening from the noble Lord's Department—
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I am not sure that the noble Lord will be in order, if I understand his intention.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I am in your hands but I was trying to raise a point which was following an Amendment put down for another place but not called.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I tried to indicate to the noble Lord—and I did have an indication of his wish—I understand his desire to get something on the Record. But I gather that he will be completely out of order if he pursues it. He has received the letter, it is an authoritative one and he or his friends are free to make whatever use of it they wish. I hope the House will pardon me for that explanation.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, may I say, with leave, how much I appreciated the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Young. I should like to acknowledge the co-operation and help that she has given at every stage when this House has been considering the Bill. I feel that she will always be able to feel that she has made a considerable contribution towards it.

CONSUMER CREDIT BILL [H.L.]
3.37 p.m.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Jacques.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONSUMER CREDIT BILL [H.L.]

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [References are to BilI 51 as first printed for the Commons]
  [Nos. 1 to 3]:
  Clause 2, page 2, line 21, leave out from "Act" to "and" in line 23.
  Clause 2, page 2, line 21,line 39, at end insert—
  "(7) References in subsection (2) to the functions of the Director under this Act do not include the making of a determination to which section 41 or 152 (appeals from Director to Secretary of State) applies".
  Clause 3, page 2, line 44, leave out "2(2)" and insert "8(2)".
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, the Commons have made precisely 250 Amendments to the Consumer Credit Bill. The Bill is divided into 12 Parts plus the Schedules. I suggest that it would be for the convenience of the House for the Amendments relating to each Part to be taken en bloc and I will act accordingly. The first Part is concerned with the Director General. There are three Amendments, all of which are drafting. Therefore I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 3.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 4 to 24] :
  Clause 9, page 4, line 15, at end insert—
  "(1A) Where credit is provided otherwise than in sterling it shall be treated for the purposes of this Act as provided in sterling of an equivalent amount."
  Clause 10, page 5, line 18, after "(iii)", insert "at the time the agreement is made".
  Clause 11, page 5, line 22, leave out from "a" to "whether" in line 25 and insert—
  "regulated consumer credit agreement—
  (a) to finance a transaction between the debtor and the creditor".
  Clause 11, page 5,line 31, at end insert—
  "(1A) An unrestricted-use credit agreement is a regulated consumer credit agreement not falling within subsection (1), and "unrestricted-use credit" shall be construed accordingly."
  leave out lines 39 to 41.
  Clause 12, page 5, leave out lines 44 to 46 and lines 1 to 7 on page 6 and insert—
  "being—
  (a) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(b) but is not made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements, or in contemplation of future arrangements, between himself and the supplier, or
  (b) a restricted-use credit agreements which falls within section 11(1)(c), or
  (c) an unrestricted-use credit agreement which is not made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements between himself and a person (the "supplier") other than the debtor in the knowledge that the credit is to be used to finance a transaction between the debtor and the supplier."
  Transfer Clause 12 to the end of line 18 on page 16.
  Clause 13, page 6, leave out lines 10 to 18 and insert
  "being—
  (a) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(a), or
  (b) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(b) and is made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements or in contemplation of future arrangements, between himself and the supplier, or
  (c) an unrestricted-use credit agreement which is made by the creditor under preexisting arrangements between himself and a person (the "supplier") other than the debtor in the knowledge that the credit is to be used to finance a transaction between the debtor and the supplier."
  Clause 15, page 7, line 7, leave out from "(c)" to end of line 9 and insert "does not require the hirer to make payments exceeding £5,000".
  Clause 16, page 7, line 13, leave out from "where" to end of line 14.
  Clause 16, page 7,line 25, leave out from "Act" to end of line 31 and insert—
  '(1A) Subsection (1) applies only where the agreement is—
  (a) a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement financing—

  (i) the purchase of land, or

  (ii) the provision of dwellings on any land, and secured by a land mortgage on that land, or

  (b) a debtor-creditor agreement secured by any land mortgage; or
  (c) a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement financing a transaction which is a linked transaction in relation to—
  (i) an agreement falling within paragraph (a), or
  (ii) an agreement falling within paragraph (b) financing—

  (aa) the purchase of any land, or

  (bb) the provision of dwellings on any land, and secured by a land mortgage on the land referred to in paragraph (a) or, as the case may be, the land referred to in subparagraph (ii)'.

  Clause 16, page 7,page 8, line 10, at end insert:"or
  (c) an agreement has a connection with a country outside the United Kingdom'.
  Clause 16, page 7,line 15, leave out "telecommunication services".
  Clause 16, page 7,line 18, leave out from 'equipment' to end of line 20 and insert "or where the owner is the Post Office or the Kingston-upon-Hull City Council".
  Clause 16, page 7,line 24, leave out '(d)' and insert "(c)".
  Clause 17, page 8, line 33, after "a" insert "regulated".
  line 36, after "(a)" insert "regulated".
  Clause 16, page 7,line 36, leave out from "agreement" to end of line 37 and insert
  "which does not require the hirer to make payments".
  Clause 16, page 7,line 42, after "10(3)", insert "(a)".
  Clause 18, page 9, line 44, after "rent", insert "(other than a rent-charge)".
  Clause 19, page 10, line 5, after "agreement") ', insert "which it does not form part".
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, the Amendments to Part II of the Bill, which sets out its scope and closely defines particular types of transaction for the purposes of the Bill, in addition to a number of drafting Amendments to simplify and clarify the definitions contained in these clauses, are also some substantive provisions: first, a new subsection is added to Clause 9 to ensure that where credit is expressed in foreign currency, the agreement concerned is still covered by the Bill. Secondly, a new paragraph is added at subsection (4)(c) of Clause 16 to enable the Secretary of State, if it proves necessary, to exempt from the Bill United Kingdom agreements with a foreign connection, so as not to interfere with legitimate international trade. This is a matter which was discussed in this House and I am sure this Amendment will be welcomed.
  My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 4 to 24.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. As he says, there is one Amendment—Amendment No. 15 on the list—which deals with international transactions, a matter which I raised at Committee stage. I am grateful to him for having put it into the Bill.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 25 to 47]:
  Clause 22, page 11, line 32, leave out "licence", and insert "standard licence issued".
  line 34, leave out "if, and".
  Clause 23, page 12, line 14, leave out from "canvassing" to "only" in line 15 and insert "off trade premises of debtor-creditor-supplier agreements or regulated consumer hire agreements".
  Clause 25, page 12, line 33, leave out 'may and insert 'shall'.
  Clause 23, page 12,line 38, leave out second 'the', and insert 'a'.
  Clause 35, page 18, line 1, leave out 'at his principal office'.
  Clause 35, page 18,line 21, at end insert—
  '(4) The Director may, if he thinks fit, determine that the right conferred by subsection (3)(a) shall be exercisable in relation to a copy of the register instead of or in addition to, the original,
  (5) The Director shall give general notice of the place or places where, and times when the register or a copy of it may be inspected'.
  Clause 36, page 18, line 22, after '21', insert 'working'.
  Clause 36, page 18,line 24, after 'licence', insert 'or the licensee under section 35(1)(d) not being a change resulting from action taken by the Director)'.
  Clause 36, page 18,line 27, after '21', insert 'working'.
  Clause 36, page 18,line 32, leave out 'the', and insert 'a'.
  line 35, leave out from 'be' to 'or' in line 37 and insert 'a controller of the body corporate'.
  Clause 36, page 18,page 19, line 1, after '14', insert 'working'.
  Clause 36, page 18,line 2, leave out 'the', and insert 'a'.
  Clause 36, page 18,line 5, after '14' insert 'working'.
  Clause 36, page 18,line 6, leave out 'the', and insert 'a'.
  Clause 36, page 18,line 11, leave out first 'the' and insert 'a standard'.
  Clause 36, page 18,line 13, leave out 'this section' and insert 'subsection (1) or (2)'.
  Clause 39, page 20, line 18, leave out 'personal' and insert 'standard'.
  Clause 41, page 22, line 12, after '40', insert '(2)'
  Clause 42, page 22, line 27, leave out 'or if aggrieved would have had'.
  Clause 42, page 22,line 37, after 'business,' insert 'in the United Kingdom'
  Clause 42, page 22,line 40, leave out from 'State' to end of line 44 and insert 'on an appeal under section 41 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 by a company registered in Northern Ireland or by any other person whose principal or prospective principal place or busines in the United Kingdom is in Northern Ireland.'.
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, Part III of the Bill deals with the licensing of credit and hire businesses. There are two Amendments which require special mention. First, in Clause 22 the words "if and" are left out, which was originally suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, when the Bill was first in this House. Secondly, in Clause 25 the word "may" is replaced by the word "shall" and makes it mandatory for the Director to have regard to any circumstances

  1891
  appearing to him to be relevant when he is considering whether an applicant is a fit person for a licence. The other Amendments are of a drafting or minor nature.
  My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 25 to 47.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lords Jacques.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 48 to 56]:
  Clause 43, page 23, line 14, at end insert 'or
  (c) a business which comprises or relates to unregulated agreements where—
  (i) the proper law of the agreement is the law of a country outside the United Kingdom, and
  (ii) if the proper law of the agreement were the law of a part of the United Kingdom it would be a regulated agreement',
  Clause 45, page 24, line 5, leave out from 'not' to end of line 11 and insert 'holding himself out as prepared to sell the goods or provide the services (as the case may be) for cash, the advertiser commits an offence'.
  Clause 48, page 25, line 2, leave out 'his employee or agent' and insert 'that other individual'.
  Clause 49, page 25, line 27, leave out 'granting credit in the form of a right of' and insert 'enabling'.
  Clause 49, page 25,line 35, leave out '(b)' and insert '(a)'.
  Clause 49, page 25,line 39, leave out from 'debtors' to end of line 41.
  Clause 49, page 25,line 44, leave out '(b)' and insert '(a)'.
  Clause 50, page 26, line 2, leave out from 'to' to 'a'.
  Clause 50, page 26,line 9, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
  '(1A) In proceedings under subsection (1) in respect of the sending of a document to a minor, it is a defence for the person charged to prove that he did not know, and had no reasonable cause to suspect, that he was a minor.
  (2) Where a document is received by a minor at any school or educational establishment for minors, a person sending it to him at that establishment knowing or suspecting it to be such an establishment shall be taken to have reasonable cause to suspect that he is a minor'.
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, Part IV of the Bill is concerned with the seeking of business. The Amendments to Part IV include one Amendment in which this House has a particular interest. It is the circulation of minors. Section 50 has
  1892
  been amended to deal with the situation where a person unwittingly sends a circular to a minor or to a school in contravention of the provisions of this clause. The combined effect of the Amendments, together with the new subsection in Clause 172, is to provide a sound defence for anybody who genuinely sends a circular soliciting credit facilities to a minor without realising that he is a minor; but they leave the onus of proving this firmly on the sender.
  My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 48 to 56.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, once again I am grateful to the noble Lord. It was my noble friend Lady Young who brought up the matter in circularising minors at the Committee stage, and I know that she will be very pleased to see that this is now dealt with in the Bill.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 57 to 78.]
  Clause 55, page 27, leave out lines 13 to 16.
  Clause 57, page 28, line 18, leave out subsection (3).
  Clause 60, page 29, line 19, at end insert '(in the case of a consumer credit agreement)'.
  Clause 60, page 29,line 39, leave out 'waive or vary the requirement' and insert 'direct that the requirement be waived or varied'.
  Clause 61, page 30, line 33, leave out (1) and insert (2).
  Clause 68, page 33, line 25, after 'if', insert '(by virtue of regulations made under section 64(4))'.
  Clause 69, page 33, line 41, at end insert—
  '(1A) In the case of a debtor-creditor supplier agreement for restricted-use credit financing—
  (a) the doing of work or supply of goods to meet on emergency, or
  (b) the supply of goods which before service of the notice of cancellation, had by the act of the debtor or his relative become incorporated in any land or thing not comprised in the agreement or any linked transaction, subsection (1) shall apply with the substitution of the following for paragraph (i)—
  "(i) to cancel only such provisions of the agreement and any linked transaction as—
  (aa) relate to the provision of credit, or
  (bb) require the debtor to pay an item in the total charge for credit, or
  (cc) subject the debtor to any obligation other than to pay for the doing of the said work, or the supply of the said goods".
  (1B) Except so far as is otherwise provided, references in this Act to the cancellation of an agreement or transaction do not include a case within subsection (1A).'
  Clause 70, page 35, line 6, leave out from '71' to end of line 10.
  leave out lines 14 to 17.
  Clause 70, page 35,line 26, at end insert—
  '(9) So far only as is necessary to give effect to section 69(1A), this section applies to an agreement or transaction within that subsection as it applies to a cancelled agreement or transaction.'
  Clause 71, page 35, line 27, at end insert 'consumer credit'.
  Clause 71,line 31, after 'regulated', insert 'consumer credit'.
  Clause 71,line 1, leave out 'calculated' and insert 'recalculated by the creditor'.
  Clause 71,line 6, leave out 'or tendered'.
  Clause 72, page 37, line 22, at end insert—
  '(aa) goods which by their nature are consumed by use and which, before the cancellation, were so consumed, or'.
  Clause 72, page 37,line 24, leave out "were consumed or".
  leave out lines 28 and 29.
  Clause 74, page 39, line 4, leave out 'conferring on the debtor the right' and insert 'enabling the debtor'.
  Clause 74, page 39,line 5, at end insert 'or—
  (c) a debtor-creditor agreement to finance the making of such payments arising on, or connected with, the death of a person as may be prescribed.'.
  Clause 74, page 39,line 8, after '(1)(b)' insert 'or (c)'.
  Clause 74, page 39,line 12, leave out "not be made unless" and insert "be made only if".
  Clause 74, page 39,line 13, leave out from ' debtors ' to end of line 14.
  Clause 74, page 39,line 16, after '(1)(b)' insert 'or (c)'.
  Clause 74, page 39,line 19, after '(1)(b)' insert 'or (c)'.
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, Part V of the Bill is concerned with entry into credit and hire agreements. There are two Amendments which will be of interest to this House. We are concerned here with the cooling off period during which the debtor or hirer can give written
  1894
  notice of withdrawal from the agreement. It was provided in the original Bill that his withdrawal was effective from the date of posting it, if post was used. The Amendment provides that withdrawal by post by either party to an agreement shall take effect at the time it is received by the other party. This is a matter which was raised in this House, and I am sure that the House will welcome this Amendment.
  The second point to which I wish to direct the attention of the House is concerned also with cancellations during the cooling off period. It will be recollected that during the cooling off period the debtor or hirer could cancel the agreement and would not have to return the goods or pay for them. Two new subsections have been added to Clause 69 to deal with cases where a debtor cancels a credit agreement after the goods to which it relates have been supplied to meet an emergency or after he himself has fixed them to land and buildings or something else so that they cannot be returned. The effect of the Amendment is that the debtor will have to pay for the goods, although he will not have to pay the charge for the credit. These are the important points in this section of the Bill and I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 57 to 78.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 79 to 92]
  Clause 76, page 40, line 5, leave out 'of the debtor or hirer' and insert 'conferred on the debtor or hirer by the agreement'.
  Clause 76, page 40,line 8, at end insert—
  '(1A) Subsection (1) applies only where—
  (a) a period for the duration of the agreement specified in the agreement, and
  (b) that period has not ended when the creditor or owner does an act mentioned in subsection (1),
  but so applies notwithstanding that, under the agreement, any party is entitled to terminate it before the end of the period so specified'.
  Clause 76, page 40,line 12, at end insert 'and taking such steps as may be necessary to make the restriction or deferment effective'.
  Clause 78, page 42, line 8, leave out 'not later than one month' and insert 'within the prescribed period'.
  Clause 82, page 43, line 34, leave out from beginning to end of line 11 on page 44 and insert—
  '(2) Where an agreement (a "modifying agreement") varies or supplements an earlier agreement, the modifying agreement shall for the purposes of this Act be treated as
  (a) revoking the earlier agreement, and
  (b) containing provisions reproducing the combined effect of the two agreements,
  and obligations outstanding in relation to the earlier agreement shall accordingly be treated as outstanding instead in relation to the modifying agreement.
  (3) If the earlier agreement is a regulated agreement but (apart from this subsection) the modifying agreement is not then, unless the modifying agreement is for running account credit, it shall be treated as a regulated agreement.
  (4) If the earlier agreement is a regulated agreement for running-account credit, and by the modifying agreement the creditor allows the credit limit to be exceeded but intends the excess to be merely temporary, Part V (except section 56) shall not apply to the modifying agreement.
  (5) If—
  (a) the earlier agreement is a cancellable agreement, and
  (b) the modifying agreement is made within the period applicable under section 68 to the earlier agreement,
  then, whether or not the modifying agreement would, apart from this subsection, be a cancellable agreement, it shall be treated as a cancellable agreement in respect of which a notice may be served under section 68 not later than the end of the period applicable under that section to the earlier agreement.
  (6) Except under subsection (5), a modifying agreement shall not be treated as a cancellable agreement.
  (7) This section does not apply to a noncommercial agreement'.
  Clause 83, page 44, line 17, leave out 'a cheque' and insert' an instrument to which section 4 of the Cheques Act 1957 applies'.
  Clause 84, page 45, line 5, at end insert:
  '(8) Where two or more credit tokens are given under one credit token agreement, the preceding provisions of this section apply to each credit-token separately'.
  Clause 85, page 45, line 17, leave out 'fully-secured'.
  Clause 86, page 45, line 20, at end insert 'if at the death the agreement is fully secured'.
  Clause 86, page 45,line 21, leave out from '(2)' to 'is' in in line 22 and insert 'If at the death of the debtor or hirer a regulated agreement is only partly secured or is unsecured, the creditor or owner'.
  Clause 86, page 45,line 24, at end insert—(2A) This section applies in relation to the termination of an agreement only where—
  (a) a period for its duration is specified in the agreement, and
  (b) that period has not ended when the creditor or owner purports to terminate the agreement,
  but to applies notwithstanding that, under the agreement, any party is entitled to terminate it before the end of the period so specified.
  Clause 86, page 45,line 26, leave out 'terminated by the debtor's death' and insert 'restricted or deferred and taking such steps as may be necessary to make the restriction or deferment effective'.
  Clause 86, page 45,line 38, leave out 'taken out for the purpose'
  Clause 86, page 45,line 38, leave out 'generally, but in fact exercised' and insert 'at will and exercised at any time'.
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, Part VI of the Bill is concerned with matters arising during the currency of a credit or hire agreement. There are quite a number of substantive Amendments and I shall have to be selective in order to save the time of the House.
  First of all, Clause 76(1)(c) is amended to make it quite clear that the requirement under this clause to give seven days' notice before the creditor takes certain action does not affect the banks' right in the interim to set up or amalgamate their customer's debt and credit accounts so as to prevent further credit from being taken. Secondly, Clause 76(4) is amended to make clear that during the period of notice under this clause the creditor can take any steps necessary to prevent the hirer from drawing further credit. This will, in particular, ensure that credit card companies can withdraw their cards from the debtor immediately. Thirdly, in Clause 84 it is now made clear that the debtor's liability of up to £30 for misuse of a credit token can apply to each credit token that he accepts. Finally, there is an Amendment which I am sure that this House will greatly welcome. The deletion of the words "taken out for the purpose" in Clause 86(4) will allow creditors or owners to have the proceeds of any assurance policy on the life of the debtor which secures the agreement, whether it was taken out for that purpose or not. This meets a point which was raised in this House.
  My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 79 to 92.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 93 to 114]
  Clause 87, page 46, line 5, leave out 'this Part' and insert 'section 88'.
  Clause 87, page 46,line 11, leave out 'of the debtor or hirer' and insert 'conferred on the debtor or hirer by the agreement'.
  Clause 87, page 46,line 13, at end insert:
  '(1A) Subsection (1) does not prevent the creditor from treating the right to draw upon any credit as restricted or deferred and taking such steps as may be necessary to make the restriction or deferment effective'.
  Clause 88, page 46, leave out lines 33 and 34.
  Clause 88,page 47, line 1, after 'creditor', insert 'or owner'.
  Clause 90, page 48, line 1, leave out from 'If' to end of line 5 and insert 'the later agreement is a modifying agreement, subsection (3) shall apply with the substitution, for the second reference to the later agreement of a reference to the modifying agreement'.
  Clause 88,line 10, after 'apply', insert '(in relation to the possession of the goods)'.
  Clause 94, page 49, line 5, after 'agreement', insert '(less any rebate allowable under section 96)'.
  Clause 94, page 49,line 11, leave out Clause 95.
  Clause 99, page 50, line 22, at end insert—
  '(1A) Subsection (1) applies only where—
  (a) a period for the duration of the agreement is specified in the agreement, and
  (b) that period has not ended when the creditor or owner does an act mentioned in subsection (1),
  but so applies notwithstanding that, under the agreement, any party is entitled to terminate it before the end of the period so specified'.
  Clause 99, page 50,line 26, at end insert 'and taking such steps as may be necessary to make the restriction or deferment effective'.
  Clause 100, page 50, line 39, at end insert—
  '(2A) Subsection (1) does not apply to a conditional sale agreement relating to land after the title to the land has passed to the debtor'.
  Clause 100, page 50,line 1, after 'agreement', insert 'relating to goods'.
  Clause 100, page 50,line 2, leave out 'or land'.
  Clause 100, page 50,line 7, after first 'agreement', insert 'relating to goods'.
  Clause 100, page 50,line 8, leave out 'or land'.
  Clause 100, page 50,line 9, leave out 'or land'.
  Clause 102, page 53, line 6, leave out 'he' and insert 'the Director'.
  Clause 102, page 53,line 7, at end insert:
  '(9) In the case of a modifying agreement, subsection (3) shall apply with the substitution, for "the making of the agreement" of "the making of the original agreement".'
  Clause 103, page 53, line 13, leave out 'creditor-broker' and insert 'credit-broker'.
  Clause 104, page 53, line 31, at end insert—
  '(iii) the agreement has ceased to have any operation and'.
  Clause 104, page 53,line 38, leave out 'has no knowledge of any indebtedness of the customer' and insert 'asserts that the customer is not indebted to him'.
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, Part VII of the Bill is concerned with default and termination. There are a number of Amendments which are drafting Amendments and there are a number of clarifying Amendments. May I give an example. A new subsection is added to Clause 102 to make it clear how the hirer's right of termination after eighteen months is to apply in the case of an agreement which has been varied. It provides that the hirer's right under the modifying agreement shall continue to date from the making of the original agreement and not from the date of modification.
  My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 93 to 114.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 115 to 140]
  Clause 106, page 54, line 23, leave out 'but not embodied in the executed agreement'.
  Clause 106,page 54, leave out from beginning of line 37 to end of line 5 on page 55, and insert—
  '(a) a document in the prescribed form, itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under subsection (2), is signed in the prescribed manner by or on behalf of the surety, and
  (b) the document embodies all the terms of the security, other than implied terms, and
  (c) the document, when presented or sent for the purpose of being signed by or on behalf of the surety, is in such a state that its terms are readily legible, and
  (d)when the document is presented or sent for the purpose of being signed by or
  on behalf of the surety there is also presented or sent a copy of the document.
  (4A) A security instrument is not properly executed unless—
  (a) where the security is provided after, or at the time when, the regulated agreement is made, a copy of the executed agreement, together with a copy of any other document referred to in it, is given to the surety at the time the security is provided, or
  (b) where the security is provided before the regulated agreement is made, a copy of the executed agreement, together with a copy of any other document referred to in it, is given to the surety within seven days after the regulated agreement is made'.
  Clause 106,page 55, line 7, leave out from 'hirer' to end of line 9.
  Clause 106,page 55,line 13, leave out from 'executed' to end of line 15.
  Clause 106,page 55,line 16, after 'security', insert '(so far as provided in relation to a regulated agreement)'.
  Clause 106,page 55,line 20, leave out 'accordingly apply to it' and insert 'apply to the security'.
  leave out lines 25 to 31.
  Clause 108, page 56, line 43, after 'ecurity', insert 'so far as provided in relation to the agreement'.
  Clause 109, page 57, line 38, after 'security', insert '(so far as provided in relation to the agreement)'.
  Clause 110, page 58, line 24, after 'security', insert '(so far as provided in relation to the agreement)'.
  Clause 111, page 59, line 4, after 'security', insert '(so far as provided in relation to the agreement)'.
  Clause 112, page 59, line 12, after 'enforceable' insert 'against the surety in respect of the breach or other matter to which the notice relates'.
  Clause 114, page 59, line 31, after 'enforceable', insert '(so far as provided in relation to the agreement)'.
  Clause 114, page 59,line 34, leave out '69 or' and insert '69(1) or becomes subject to section 69(1A), or (aa) a regulated agreement is'.
  Clause 114,page 60, line 1, leave out '(1)(b)' and insert '(3)(c)'.
  Clause 114,page 60,line 7, leave out '(1)' and insert '(3)(a)'.
  Clause 114,page 60,line 9, after 'enforceable', insert 'in relation to the agreement or transaction'.
  Clause 122, page 62, line 35, leave out 'the case of a sale by public auction' and insert 'such cases as may be prescribed'.
  Clause 122, page 62,line 38, leave out 'the amount of any offer so far received' and insert 'such other particulars as may be prescribed'.
  Clause 124, page 64, line 13, at end insert—
  '(6) The Secretary of State may by order provide that this section shall not apply where the regulated agreement has a connection
  1900
  with a country outside the United Kingdom'.
  Clause 126, page 64, line 30, after '(b)', insert '("the protected person")'.
  leave out line 32 and insert 'the protected person in contravention of section 124(1) or (3), or taken from the protected person'.
  Clause 126, page 64,line 34, leave out 'him' and insert 'the protected person'.
  Clause 127, page 64, line 39, after 'enforceable', insert '(so far as provided in relation to the agreement)'.
  leave out lines 40 to 42.
  Clause 128, page 65, line 5, leave out Clause 128.
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, Part VIII of the Bill is concerned with security. The Amendments here are mainly clarifying Amendments. May I give just one example. There are Amendments to Clauses 106, 108, 109, 110, 111 and 114. All of these Amendments have one objective; that is, to make it clear that there is nothing in the Bill to prevent a creditor or owner enforcing security in relation to an unregulated agreement, even if it also secures a regulated agreement. For example, a customer might give his bank security not only to secure a regulated loan of £4,000 to himself, but also an unregulated loan of £10,000 to his company. Fears have been expressed that the Bill would prevent the creditor from enforcing the security in relation to the £10,000 loan, merely because there was something which prevented it from enforcing the security in relation to the £4,000 loan. This effect was never intended and the Amendments make this clear. That is a typical example of what has been done in this Part of the Bill. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 115 to 140.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 141 to 761]
  Clause 129, page 65, line 24, leave out from 'court' to first 'it' and insert 'shall dismiss the application if, but (subject to subsections (3) and (4)) only if'.
  Clause 129, page 65,line 31, leave out 'under any provision mentioned in subsection (1)'.
  Clause 130, page 66, line 13, leave out from 'shall' to 'the' in line 15 and insert 'make an order under section 86(2) if, but only if,'.
  leave out lines 16 to 19 and insert 'satisfy himself that the present and future obligations of the debtor or hirer under the agreement are likely to be discharged'.
  Clause 131, page 66, leave out lines 39 and 40 and insert—
  '(b) the remedying by the debtor or hirer of any breach of a regulated agreement (other than non-payment of money) within such period as the court may specify.'.
  Clause 132, page 67, line 5, leave out from '131(2)(a) to end of line 6 and insert 'giving effect to the offer without hearing evidence of means'.
  leave out lines 24 to 26 and insert—
  '(5) Without prejudice to anything done by the creditor or owner before the commencement of the period specified in a time order made under section 131(2)(b) ("the relevant period"),—
  (a) he shall not while the relevant period subsists take in relation to the agreement any action such as is mentioned in section 87(1);
  (b) where—
  (i) a provision of the agreement ("the secondary provision") becomes operative only on breach of another provision of the agreement ("the primary provision"), and
  (ii) the time order provides for the remedying of such a breach of the primary provision within the relevant period,
  he shall not treat the secondary provision as operative before the end of that period;
  (c)if while the relevant period subsists the breach to which the order relates is remedied it shall be treated as not having occurred.'.
  Clause 135, page 68, line 12, leave out from '(1)' to end of line 16 and insert 'If, in relation to a regulated hire-purchase or conditional sale agreement, it appears to the court just to do so—
  (a) on an application for an enforcement order or time order; or
  (b) in an action brought by the creditor to recover possession of goods to which the agreement relates, the court may'.
  Clause 135, page 68,line 23, leave out from 'goods' to end of line 24.
  Clause 135, page 68,line 36, leave out 'debtor may select' and insert 'court thinks just'.
  leave out lines 40 to 43.
  Clause 135,page 69, line 6, leave out 'an instalment order' and insert 'a time order'.
  Clause 135,page 69,line 10, at end insert:
  '(7) If, in contravention of a return order or transfer order, any goods to which the order relates are not returned to the creditor, on the application of the creditor, may—
  (a) revoke so much of the order as relates to those goods, and
  (b) order the debtor to pay the creditor the unpaid portion of so much of the total price as is referable to those goods.
  (8) For the purposes of this section, the part of the total price referable to any goods is the part assigned to those goods by the agreement or (if no such assignment is made) the part determined by the court to be reasonable'.
  Clause 136, page 69, line 13, after 'creditor', insert 'or owner'.
  Clause 136, page 69,line 16, after 'debtor', insert 'or hirer'.
  Clause 136, page 69,line 22, after 'debtor', insert 'or hirer'.
  Clause 136, page 69,line 23, after 'creditor', insert 'or owner'.
  Clause 136, page 69,line 24, after 'debtor' insert 'or hirer'.
  Clause 136, page 69,line 25, after 'creditor', insert 'or owner'.
  Clause 136, page 69,line 26, after 'debtor', insert 'or hirer'.
  Clause 136, page 69,line 27, after 'debtor's', insert 'or hirer's'.
  Clause 137, page 70, line 2, at end insert—
  '("'(1A) The court shall not suspend the operation of a term requiring the delivery up of goods by any person unless satisfied that the goods are in his possession or control.")'.
  Clause 141, page 71, line 26, leave out 'in the county court or sheriff court'.
  Clause 141,page 72, line 13, after '(5)' insert 'In England and Wales'.
  leave out lines 23 to 25 and insert—
  '(7) In Northern Ireland an application under subsection (1)(a) may be brought in the county court in the case of—
  (a) a regulated agreement, or
  (b) an agreement (not being a regulated agreement) under which the creditor provides the debtor with fixed-sum credit not exceeding £300 or running-account credit on which the credit limit does not exceed £300.'.
  Clause 143, page 72, line 32, after '(1)', insert 'In England and Wales'.
  leave out from beginning of line 38 to 'shall' in line 4 on page 73 and insert 'and such an action'.
  page 73, line 7, leave out 'subsection (1)' and insert 'This Act'.
  Clause 143, page 73,line 14, leave out 'or application'.
  Clause 143, page 73,line 15, leave out 'or application'.
  Clause 143, page 73,line 15, at end insert:
  '(3A) In Northern Ireland the county court shall have jurisdiction to hear and determine any action or application falling within subsection (1).'.
  Clause 144, page 73, line 26, leave out 'the debtor or hirer, or any surety' and insert 'an interested party'.
  Clause 143, page 73,line 32, leave out from beginning to end of line 36 and insert—
  '(2) Where—
  (a) a regulated agreement or linked transaction is cancelled under section 69(1), or becomes subject to section 69(1A), or
  (b) a regulated agreement is terminated under section 91, and an interested party applies to the court for a declaration under this subsection, the court may make a declaration to that effect'.
  Clause 145, page 73, line 42, leave out '143(1)' and insert '143(3A)'.
  Clause 145,page 74, line 1, after 'hirer', insert 'in the county court'.
  Clause 145,page 74, leave out from beginning of line 6 to first 'in' in line 9 and insert 'under section 131(1)(b), 134(1), 141(1)(a) or 144(1)(b) which is brought in the county court may be brought'.
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, Part IX of the Bill is concerned with the judicial issues. The Amendments are largely drafting or consequential, or are by way of simplification. There is, however, one Amendment which I should particularly mention. The Amendment to Clause 135 substitutes the words, "court thinks just" for the words "debtor may select", and is for the purpose of meeting an assurance given to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross during Committee stage in this House. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 141 to 176.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amend ments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 177 to 188]
  Clause 147. page 75, line 3. leave out from 'credit' to end of line 4 and insert:
  (i) to persons carrying on businesses to which this sub-paragraph applies, or
  (ii) in the case of an individual desiring to obtain credit to finance the acquisition or provision of a dwelling occupied or to be occupied by himself or his relative, to any person carrying on a business in the course of which he provides credit secured on land, or'.
  Clause 147. page 75,line 6, leave out 'consumer hire businesses' and insert 'businesses to which this paragraph applies'.
  Clause 147. page 75,line 8, at end insert:
  '(2A) Subsection (2)(a)(i) applies to—

  (a) a consumer credit business;

  (b) a business which comprises or relates to consumer credit agreements being, otherwise than by virtue of section 16(4)(a), exempt agreements;

  (c) a business which comprises or relates to unregulated agreements where—

  (i) the proper law of the agreement is the law of a country outside the United Kingdom, and

  (ii) if the proper law of the agreement were the law of a part of the United Kingdom it would be a regulated consumer credit agreement.

  (2B) Subsection (2)(b) applies to—

  (a) a consumer hire business;

  (b) a business which comprises or relates to unregulated agreements where—

  (i) the proper law of the agreement is the law of a country outside the United Kingdom, and
  (ii) if the proper law of the agreement were the law of a part of the United Kingdom it would be a regulated consumer hire agreement'.
  Clause 148. page 75, line 34. leave out 'or section 75(1) of the Solicitors Measure (Northern Ireland) 1974'.
  Clause 148. page 75,line 37, leave out from 'solicitor' to 'engaging' in line 38 and insert 'within the meaning of the Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1933'.
  Clause 148. page 75,line 40, at end insert:
  '(3A) A solicitor in Northern Ireland engaging in business done, whether as solicitor or advocate, in or for the purposes of proceedings begun before acourt (including the Lands Tribunal for Northern Ireland) or before an arbitrator appointed under the Arbitration Act (Northern Ireland) 1937, not being business contained in section 2 of the Probates and Letters of Administration Act (Ireland) 1857, is not to be treated as doing so in the course of any ancillary credit business'.
  Clause 148.,page 76, line 16, leave out 'a consumer credit business or consumer hire business' and insert 'any business other than a debt-collecting business'.
  Clause 55, page 79, line 27, leave out 'his employee or agent' and insert 'any other individual'.
  Clause 55, page 79,line 29, leave out 'his employee or agent' and insert 'any other individual'.
  Clause 157, page 80, line 5, leave out from 'individual' to end of line 11 and insert 'to whom this subsection applies shall cease to be payable or, as the case may be, shall be recoverable by the individual if the introduction docs not result in his entering into a relevant agreement within the six months following the introduction (disregarding any agreement which is cancelled under section 69(1) or becomes subject to section 69(1A)).
  (1A) Subsection (1) applies to an individual who sought an introduction for a purpose which would have been fulfilled by his entry into—

  (a) a regulated agreement, or

  (b) in the case of an individual such as is referred to in section 146(2)(a)(ii), an agreement for credit secured on land, or

  1905

  (c) an agreement such as is referred to in section 146(3)(b)) or (c) or (4)(b).

  (1B) An agreement is a relevant agreement for the purposes of subsection (1) in relation to an individual if it is an agreement such as is referred to in subsection (1A) in relation to that individual'.
  Clause 160, page 81, line 3, leave out 'the payment of' and insert 'such particulars as the agency may reasonably require to enable them to identify the file, and'.
  Clause 160,page 82, line 16, at end insert the following new clause:
  'Alternative procedure for business consumers
  (1) The Director, on an application made by a credit reference agency, may direct that this section shall apply to the agency if he is satisfied—

  (a) that compliance with section 160 in the case of consumers who carry on a business would adversely affect the service provided to its customers by the agency, and

  (b) that, having regard to the methods employed by the agency and to any other relevant factors, it is probable that consumers carrying on a business would not be prejudiced by the making of the direction.

  (2) Where an agency to which this section applies receives a request, particulars and a fee under section 160(1) from a consumer who carries on a business, and section 160(3) does not apply, the agency, instead of complying with section 160, may elect to deal with the matter under the following subsections.
  (3) Instead of giving the consumer a copy of the file, the agency shall within the prescribed period give notice to the consumer that it is proceeding under this section, and by notice give the consumer such information included in or based on entries in the file as the Director may direct, together with a statement in the prescribed form of the consumer's rights under subsections (4) and (5).
  (4) If within 28 days after receiving the information given him under subsection (3), or such longer period as the Director may allow, the consumer—

  (a) gives notice to the Director that he is dissatisfied with the information, and

  (b) satisfies the Director that he has taken such steps in relation to the agency as may be reasonable with a view to removing the cause of his dissatisfaction, and

  (c) pays the Director the specified fee, the Director may direct the agency to give the Director a copy of the file, and the Director may disclose to the consumer such of the information on the file as the Director thinks fit.

  (5) Section 161 applies with any necessary modifications to information given to the consumer under this section as it applies to information given under section 160.
  (6) If an agency making an election under subsection (2) fails to comply with subsection (3) or (4) it commits an offence'.
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, Part X of the Bill is concerned with ancillary credit businesses. There are examples in two sets of Amendments which I think I should comment upon. First, the new paragraph in Clause 147 brings within the ambit of the licensing provisions brokers who introduce customers to creditors providing house purchase mortgage loans. These brokers, unlike the building societies and other creditors to whom they make introductions, are not subject to other legislation, and it is, therefore, desirable that they should require licences under the Bill. By the Amendments they are required to have licences.
  Secondly, there is a matter which was discussed in this House. Clause 160 gives a consumer the right to obtain from a credit reference agency a copy of any file the agency keeps on him. Anxiety was expressed in this House and elsewhere about the consequences for those credit reference agencies whose reports relate mainly to businesses of having to disclose their sources of information. It was feared that these sources would dry up. The new clause in Amendment No. 188 makes provision for an alternative procedure to apply in relation to requests made by business consumers. The Director is given authority to direct what information an agency is to supply as an alternative to supplying a copy of the entire file on the business consumer. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 177 to 188.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 189 to 194.]
  Clause 162, page 82, line 30, leave out 'they shall' and insert 'it shall, as between the authority and the Director, be the duty of the authority to'.
  Clause 163, page 85, line 12, leave out 'authorities' and insert 'authorises'.
  Clause 172, page 88, line 1, after '(1)', insert:
  'If an agreement contains a term signifying that in the opinion of the parties section 10(3)(b)(iii) does not apply to the agreement, it shall be taken not to apply unless the con-tary is proved. (1A)'.
  line 18, at end insert—
  '(3A) In proceedings under section 50(1) in respect of a document received by a minor at any school or other educational establishment for minors, it is for the person sending it to him at that establishment to prove that he did not know or suspect it to be such an establishment'.
  Clause 173, page 88, leave out lines 34 and 35 and insert—
  '(2) Where a trader—

  (a) gives a customer a notice in compliance with section 104(1)(b), or

  (b) gives a customer a notice under section 104(1) asserting that the customer is not indebted to him under an agreement,

  the notice is binding on the trader'.
  Clause 173, page 88,line 40, leave out from 'court' to end of line 3 on page 89 and insert 'may direct such relief (if any) to be given to the creditor or owner from the operation of subsection (1) or (2) as appears to the court to be just'.
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, Part XI of the Bill is concerned with enforcement and there are two Amendments which call for comment. First, one of the factors determining whether an agreement for running-account credit is covered by the Bill is whether it is probable that the debit balance will not rise above £5,000. However, an unscrupulous debtor might enter an agreement on the understanding that his overdraft would exceed £5,000 and then draw a lesser amount and claim the protection of the Bill. To meet anxiety about this possibility while continuing to protect the consumer, Amendment No. 191 to Clause 172 places on the person claiming the contrary the onus of proving that Clause 10(3)(b)(iii) does apply, despite a term in the agreement saying that in the opinion of the parties it does not apply.
  Amendment 194 to Clause 173(3) meets the criticism levelled at the concept of a notional prosecution by providing instead that the court should have discretion to decide the extent to which a creditor or owner may be relieved from being bound by a statement that has been shown to be wrong; for example, a statement saying that the debtor was £2,000 in credit when, in fact, he was only £20 in credit. This point waft originally criticised in this House. I do not think I need detain the House on any of the other Amendments. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 189 to 194.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 195 to 229]
  Clause 175, page 89, line 34, after 'III', reports of Director)'.
  Clause 175,line 35, leave out 'and.'
  Clause 175,line 37, at end insert 'or.'
  Clause 175,page 90, line 13, leave out Clause 177 and insert—
  Service of documents
  "—(1) A document to be served under this Act by one person ("the server") on another person ("the subject") is to be treated as properly served on the subject if dealt with as mentioned in the following subsections.
  (2) The document may be delivered or sent by post to the subject, or addressed to him by name and left at his proper address.
  (3) For the purposes of this Act, a document sent by post to, or left at, the address last known to the server as the address of a person shall be treated as sent by post to, or left at, his proper address.
  (4) Where the document is to be served on the subject as being the person having any interest in land, and it is not practicable after reasonable inquiry to ascertain the subject's name or address, the document may be served by—

  (a) addressing it to the subject by the description of the person having that interest in the land (naming it), and

  (b) delivering the document to some responsible person on the land or affixing it, or a copy of it, in a conspicuous position on the land.

  (5) Where a document to be served on the subject as being a debtor, hirer or surety, or as having any other capacity relevant for the purposes of this Act, is served at any time on another person who—

  (a) is the person last known to the server as having that capacity, but

  (b) before that time had ceased to have it, the document shall be treated as having been served at that time on the subject.

  (6) Anything done to a document in relation to a person who (whether to the knowledge of the server or not) has died shall be treated for the purposes of subsection (5) as service of the document on that person if it would have been so treated had he not died.
  (7) Neither of the following enactments (which provide for the vesting of the estate of an intestate in the Probate Judge) shall be construed as authorising service on the Probate Judge of any document which is to be served under this Act—
  section 9 of the Administration of Estates Act 1925;
  section 3 of the Administration of Estates Act (Northern Ireland) 1955.
  (8) References in the preceding subsections to the serving of a document on a person include the giving of the document to that person.
  Clause 181, page 92, line 40, leave out '(3)(b)'.
  Clause 182, page 93, line 14, leave out "and (9)".
  Clause 182, page 93,line 15, after '121(1)(a) insert '141(5) and (7)'.
  Clause 182, page 93,line 18, leave out 'or 75(3)(b)', and insert '75(3)(b) or 145(5) or (7)'.
  Clause 183, page 93, line 23, leave out '192(2)', and insert '192'.
  Clause 183, page 93,line 27, after ("exercisable")', and insert ' "by the Secretary of State")'.
  Clause 183, page 93,line 38, after '("conferred")', insert '("on the Secretary of State")'.
  After Clause 183, insert the following new clause 'The Director may vary or revoke any determination or direction made or given by him under this Act (other than Part III, or Part III as applied by section 149)'.
  Clause 184, page 94, line 11, leave out second 'the', and insert 'a'.
  Clause 184, page 94,line 12, leave out 'the', and insert 'a'.
  Clause 184, page 94,line 15, leave out 'the', and insert 'a'.
  Clause 184, page 94,line 22, leave out 'the', and insert 'a'.
  Clause 184, page 94,line 23, leave out 'the'.
  Clause 185, page 95, line 12, at end insert:
  '(3A) Where a regulated agreement has two or more debtors or hirers (not being a par-nership or an unincorporated body of persons), section 86 applies to the death of any of them'.
  Clause 189, page 97, line 39, at end insert 'and includes a consumer credit agreement which is cancelled under section 69(1), or be-becomes subject to section 69(1A), so far as the agreement remains in force'.
  Clause 189,page 98, line 19, leave out from 'Wales' to end of line 21 and insert 'the county court, in relation to Scotland the sheriff court and in relation to Northern Ireland the High Court or the county court'.
  Clause 189,page 99, line 31, leave out 'has the meaning given by section 128(a)' and insert 'means an order under scetion 65(1), 106(6)(a) or (b), 122(2) or 125(1) or (2);'.
  Clause 189,page 100, line 13, leave out 'subject to section 177'.
  Clause 189,page 101, line 29, leave out' and "unlicensed" shall be construed accordingly'.
  Clause 189,page 101,line 43, at end insert:
  '"modifying agreement" has the meaning given by section 82(2)'.
  Clause 189,page 104, line 25, at end insert '"unlicensed" means without a licence, but applies only in relation to acts for which a licence is required;'.
  Clause 189,page 104,line 27, leave out '11(4)' and insert '11(1A)'.
  Clause 189,page 104,line 39, at end insert 'This subsection does not apply to Scotland'.
  Clause 191, page 105, line 27, after '(1)', insert—
  'The Director may make arrangements with the Department of Commerce for Northern Ireland for the Department, on his behalf,—

  (a) to receive applications, notices and fees;

  (b) to maintain, and make available for inspection and copying copies of entries in the register; and

  (c) to provide certified copies of entries in the register,

  to the extent that seems to him desirable for the convenience of persons in Northern Ireland.
  (1A) The Director shall give general notice of any arrangements made under subsection (1).
  (1B)'.
  Clause 189,page 104,line 33, leave out '182' and insert '179'.
  Clause 192, page 106, line 17, leave out 'Schedule 3' and insert 'subsection (4)'.
  Clause 192,line 24, at end insert:
  '(4) The Secretary of State shall by order made by statutory instrument provide for the coming into operation of the amendments contained in Schedule 4 and the repeals contained in Schedule 5, and those amendments and repeals shall have effect only as provided by an order so made'.
  Clause 193, page 106, line 28, leave out subsection (3).
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, Part XII is supplementary. Most of the Amendments in this Part are consequential upon earlier Amendments mainly inserting or amending new definitions into Clause 189. Other Amendments seek only to clarify the position. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 195 to 229.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [Nos. 230 to 250.]
  Schedule 1, page 107, line 13, leave out '45(1) Failure to indicate in advertisements that goods etc.'and insert' 45 Advertising credit where goods etc. not'.
  Clause 192,Page 109, line 7, at end insert:

  ' (Alternative procedure for business consumers).

  Failure of credit reference agency to comply with section (Alternative procedure for business consumers (3) or (4).

  Summarily £200.'

  Clause 192,Page 109,line 13, leave out 'sections' and insert 'section'.
  Clause 192,Page 109,Schedule 2, page 110, line 12, at end insert '24'.
  Clause 192,Page 109,line 24. at end insert '24'.
  Clause 192,Page 109,line 25, at end insert—'Modifying agreement. 82(2) 24'.
  Clause 192,Page 109,line 29, leave out '181' and insert '187'.
  Clause 192,Page 109,page 112, line 35, leave out '11(4)' and insert '11(1A)'.
  Clause 192,Page 109,page 116, line 45, leave out "agreements providing for the bank' and insert 'a scheme whereby the bank uhdertakes'.
  Clause 192,page 117,.line 19, leave out '181(3)' and insert '187(3)'
  Clause 192,page 117,line 29, after 'Analysis' insert:
  'In exceeding his credit limit B, by implication, requests A (Credit) to allow him a temporary excess (compare Example 17). A (Credit) are thus faced by B's action with the choice of treating it as a breach of contract or granting his implied request. They do the latter. If they had done the former, B would be treated as taking credit to which he was not entitled (see section 14(3)) and, subject to the terms of his contract with A, Credit), would be liable to damages for breach of contract. As it is,'.
  Clause 192,Page 118, line 6, at end insert—

  'EXAMPLE 24
  Facts. On 1st March 1975 Z fin England) enters into an agreement with A (an unincorporated body of persons) to bail to A equipment consisting of two components (component P and component Q). The agreement is not a hire-purchase agreement and is for a fixed term of 3 years, so paragraphs (a) and (b) of section 15(1) are both satisfied. The rental is payable monthly at a rate of £2,400 a year, but the agreement provides that this is to be reduced to £1,200 a year for the remainder of the agreement if at any time during its currency A returns component Q to the owner Z. On 5th May 1976 A is incorporated as A Ltd., taking over A's assets and liabilities. On 1st March 1977, A Ltd. returns component Q. On 1st January 1978, Z and A Ltd. agree to extend the earlier agreement by one year, increasing the rental for the final year by £250 to £1,450.
  Analysis. When entered into on 1st March 1975, the agreement is a consumer hire agreement. A falls within the definition of "individual" in section 188(1) and if A returns component Q before 1st May 1976 the total rental will not exceed £5,000 (see section 15(1)(c)). When this date is passed without
  1912
  component Q having been returned it is obvious that the total rental must now exceed £5,000. Does this mean that the agreement then ceases to be a consumer hire agreement? The answer is no, because there has been no change in the terms of the agreement, and without such a change the agreement cannot move from one category to the other. Similarly, the fact that A's rights and duties under the agreement pass to a body corporate on 5th May 1976 does not cause the agreement to cease to be a consumer hire agreement (see the definition of "hirer" in section 188(1)).
  The effect of the modifying agreement of 1st January 1978 is governed by section 82(2), which requires it to be treated as containing provisions reproducing the combined effect of the two actual agreements, that is to say as providing that—

  (a) obligations outstanding on 1st January 1978 are to be treated as outstanding under the modifying agreement;

  (b) the modifying agreement applies at the old rate of hire for the months of January and February 1978, and

  (c) for the year beginning 1st March 1978 A Ltd. will be the bailee of component P at a rental of £1,450.

  The total rental under the modifying agreement is £1,850. Accordingly the modifying agreement is a regulated agreement. Even if the total rental under the modifying agreement exceeded £5,000 it would still be regulated because of the provisions of section 82(3)'.
  1. Page 118, line 7, leave out Schedule 3 and insert:

SCHEDULE 3
  TRANSITIONAL AND COMMENCEMENT PROVISIONS
  Note. Except as otherwise mentioned in this Schedule, the provisions of this Act come into operation on its passing, that is on 1974.
PART II OF ACT

  CREDIT AGREEMENTS. HIRE AGREEMENTS AND LINKED TRASACTIONS
  Regulated agreements
  1.—(1) An agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph is not a regulated agreement within the meaning of this Act.
  (2) In this Act "prospective regulated agreement" does not include a prospective agreement which, if made as expected, would be made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  Linked transactions
  2. A transaction may be a linked transaction in relation to a regulated agreement or prospective regulated agreement even though the transaction was entered into before the day appointed for the purposes of paragraph 1.
  3. Section 19(3) applies only to transactions entered into on or after the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  Total charge for credit
  4. Section 20 applies to consumer credit agreements whenever made.

PART III OF ACT

  LICENSING OF CREDIT AND HIRE BUSINESSES
  Businesses needing a licence
  5.—(1) Section 21 does not apply to the carrying on of any description of consumer credit business or consumer hire business before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph in relation to a business of that description.
  (2) Where the person carrying an any description of consumer credit business or consumer hire business applies for a licence before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph in relation to a business of that description, he shall be deemed to have been granted on that day a licence covering that business and continuing in force until the licence applied for is granted or, if the application is refused, until the end of the appeal period.
  The register
  6. Sections 35 and 36 come into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  Enforcement of agreements made by unlicensed trader
  7. Section 40 does not apply to a regulated agreement made in the course of any business before the day appointed for the purposes of paragraph 5 in relation to a business of that description.

PART IV OF ACT

  SEEKING BUSINESS
  Advertisements
  8. Part IV does not apply to any advertise ment published before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  Canvassing
  9. Section 49 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  Circulars to minors
  10. Section 50 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  Unsolicited credit-tokens
  11.—(1) Section 51(1) does not apply to the giving of a credit-token before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph
  (2) In section 51(3), "agreement" means an agreement whenever made.

PART V OF ACT

  ENTRY INTO CREDIT OR HIRE AGREEMENTS
  Antecedent negotiations
  12.—(1) Section 56 applies to negotiations in relation to an actual or prospective regulated agreement where the negotiations begin after the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  (2) In section 56(3), "agreement", where it first occurs, means an agreement whenever made.
  General
  13. Sections 57 to 59, 61 to 65 and 67 to 73 come into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  14. Section 66 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.

PART VI OF ACT

  MATTERS ARISING DURING CURRENCY OF CREDIT OR HIRE AGREEMENTS
  Liability of creditor for breaches by supplier
  15. Section 75 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  Duty to give notice
  16.—(1) Section 76 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  (2) Section 76 applies to an agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement if made on that day.
  Duty to give information
  17.—(1) Sections 77 to 80 come into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  (2) Sections 77 to 79 apply to an agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement if made on that day.
  Appropriation of payments
  18. Section 81 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  Variation of agreements
  19. Section 82 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  Misuse of credit facilities
  20.—(1) Sections 83 and 84 come into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  (2) Subject to sub paragraph (4), section 83 applies to an agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph

  1915
  where the agreement would have been a regulated consumer credit agreement if made on that day.
  (3) Subject to sub-paragraph (4), section 84 applies to an agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph where the agreement would have been a credit-token agreement if made on that day.
  (4) Sections 83 and 84 do not apply to losses arising before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  (5) Section 84(4) shall be taken to be satisfied in relation to an agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph if, within 28 days after that day the creditor gives notice to the debtor of the name, address and telephone number of a person stated in that notice to be the person to whom notice is to be given under section 84(3).
  Duty on issue of new credit-tokens
  21.—(1) Section 85 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  (2) Section 85 applies to an agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement if made on that day.
  Death of debtor or hirer
  22.—(1) Section 86 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  (2) Section 86 applies to an agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement if made on that day.

PART VII OF ACT DEFAULT AND TERMINATION
Default notices
23. Sections 87 to 89 come into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
Retaking of goods and land
24. Sections 90 and 91 come into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
25. Section 92 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
Interest on default
26. Section 93 comes into the operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
Early payment by debtor
27. Sections 94 to 98 come into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
Termination of agreements
28. Section 99 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
29. Section 100 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
30. Section 101 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
31. Section 102 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
32. Section 103 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
33. Section 104 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
34. Section 105 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
Old agreements
35. Part VII (except sections 90, 91, 93 and 100 to 103 and 105) applies to an agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement if made on that day.

PART VIII OF ACT SECURITY
General
36. Section 106 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
37.—(1) Sections 108 to 111 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
(2) Sections 108 to 111 apply to an agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement if made on that day.
38.—(1) Section 112 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
(2) Section 112 applies to an agreement made before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement if made on that day.
Pledges
39. Sections 115 to 123 come into opera tion on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
Negotiable instruments
40. Sections 124 to 126 come into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
Land mortgages
41. Section 127 comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.

PART IX OF ACT

  JUDICIAL CONTROL
  42. Sections 139 to 142 (extortionate credit bargains) come into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph, and apply to agreements and transactions whenever made.
  43. Subject to paragraph 42, Part IX comes into operation on the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.

PART X OF ACT

  ANCILLARY CREDIT BUSINESSES
  Licensing
  44.—(1) Section 21(1) does not apply (by virtue of section 149(1)) to the carrying on of any ancillary credit business before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph' in' relation to a business of that description.
  (2) Where the person carrying on an ancillary credit business applies for a licence before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph in relation to a business of that description, he shall be deemed to have been granted on that day a licence covering that business and continuing in force until the licence applied for is granted or, if the application is refused, until the end of the appeal period.
  Enforcement of agreements made by unlicensed trader
  45. Section 150(1) does not apply to an agreement made in the course of any business before the day appointed for the purposes of paragraph 44 in relation to a business of that description.
  Introductions by unlicensed credit-broker
  46. Section 151 does not apply to a regulated agreement made on an introduction effected in the course of any business if the introduction was effected before the day appointed for the purposes of paragraph 44 in relation to a business of that description.
  Advertisements
  47. Subsections (1) and (2) of section 153 do not apply to any advertisement published before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.
  Credit reference agencies
  48. Sections 159 and 160 do not apply to a request received before the day appointed for the purposes of this paragraph.

PART XII OF ACT

  SUPPLEMENTAL
  Interpretation
  49.—(1) In the case of an agreement—

  (a) which was made before the day appointed for the purposes of paragraph 17, and

  (b) to which (by virtue of paragraph 17(2)) section 78(4) applies,

  section 185(2) shall have effect as respects a notice given before that day in relation to the agreement (whether given before or after the passing of this Act) as it would have effect if section 78(4) had been in operation when the notice was given.
  (2) Paragraph (1) applies to an agreement made on or after the day appointed for the purposes of paragraph 17 to provide credit on a current account opened before that day as it applies to an agreement made before that day.
  50. In section 189, the definition of "local authority" shall have effect in relation to matters arising before 16th May 1975 as if for the words "regional, islands or district council" there were substituted "a county council or town council".'
  Schedule 4, page 148, line 7, at end insert—
  '("Fair Trading Act 1973
  36A. For section 138(5) substitute—
  (5) In subsection (4) of this section, the following expressions have the meanings given by, or referred to in, section 189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974—
  "antecedent negotiations",
  "conditional sale agreement",
  "credit-sale agreement",
  "hire-purchase agreement".")'.
  Page 149, line 43, leave out from 'the' to end of line 44 and insert 'insertion after "High Court" of the words "or county court".'.
  Schedule 5, page 160, line 22, after 'words', insert '"or a pawnbroker" and'.
  Schedule 5, page 160,line 32, leave out 'The'.
  Schedule 5, page 160,page 161, line 43, leave out first 'The *.
  Schedule 5, page 160,page 162, line 2, leave out 'The'.
  Schedule 5, page 160,line 39, leave out first 'The'.
  LORD JACQUES: My Lords, I have now only to deal with Schedules 1 to 5. Practically all the Amendments to the Schedules are of a drafting or consequential nature. I need only draw attention to the deletion of Schedule 3 and the substitution of a new Schedule. This makes provision for the transitional and commencement provisions, and reflects

  1919
  later discussions between the Department and the industry about these matters. The Schedule now reflects what is practical, it gives flexibility and yet provides the minimum degree of retrospection necessary to achieve adequate consumer protection. In conclusion, I am personally impressed by the way in which the Bill has been improved and I hope that the House generally will be so impressed. Many of the improvements arose from issues first raised in this House. I am sure that noble Lords in all parts of the House will join me in expressing pleasure that what was said in this House has not gone unheeded. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 230 to 250.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Jacques.)
  LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, for getting through 250 Amendments extremely swiftly and very comprehensively. As he said, on a number of occasions an Amendment was introduced as a result of some point which had been raised in this House originally. I have not thanked him on each occasion, but all my noble friends are extremely grateful to him. The fact that there have been so many Amendments is due to the fact that the noble Lord and his noble friends have listened to outside organisations of one kind and another. I think the Bill has been very much improved as a result of the consultations that have taken place in the course of its passage through both Houses.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

PALACE OF WESTMINSTER SECURITY
3.58 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, with the permission of your Lordships, I will now read a Statement on security and I will use the words spoken by my right honourable friend the Lord President of the Council in another place. The Statement is as follows:
"At the Government's request, with the approval of Mr. Speaker and the Lord Chancellor, the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis has agreed that the Deputy Commissioner, Mr. James Starritt, should arrange for a special assessment of security in the Palace of Westminster to be made under his direction by the present Head of the Metropolitan Police, Crime Prevention Branch. With the co-operation of the authorities in both Houses, the police will work in close liaison with the Security Co-ordinater, the Chief Inspector in charge of police in the Palace of Westminster and the Superintendent of Custodians. The assessment will cover both Houses of Parliament and will pay particular attention to the question of public access and the security of individual rooms. Mr. Starritt will report to Mr. Speaker and to the Lord Chancellor."
My Lords, the Lord President ends the Statement by saying:
"I feel sure that the Deputy Commissioner will wish to take full account of the valuable work that the Services Committee has been doing on security matters".
Since this is a Statement repeated in your Lordships' House, I should perhaps add a reference to the work of our own Offices Committee; in particular, the Administration Sub-Committee and also to Black Rod and all those other officials who serve us.
4.0 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Lord for having repeated that Statement. We are naturally all very concerned about the security of the Houses of Parliament, and are also very conscious of the extreme difficulty of enforcing complete security where the public have such ready

1921
access, as indeed they should and must. Also, may I echo the noble Lord's words and say how grateful we are to our own Committees and to Black Rod, and particularly to the staff, on whom a great deal of extra work has fallen. They have a difficult task to perform and they do it with great care and efficiency. I should like to welcome the Statement, and particularly the fact that the inquiry will be under the personal direction of the Deputy Commissioner, Mr. James Starritt, and I am sure that that will be a most valuable exercise.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I also wish to welcome the Statement and to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for what he has said, particularly about the work done by Black Rod and the other people who work in this House. I should particularly like to pay a tribute to the work of the police. On a more personal note, I should like to express the hope that as many Members as possible will now supply themselves with passes, which can be obtained very easily in this House, because there will be a large number of police who will take part in the work of ensuring security and it will be a great convenience to them if all Members have passes.
LORD OAKSHOTT: My Lords, I wonder whether I may be allowed to add my thanks to the noble Lord, because I asked a Question for Written Answer on this subject not so long ago. I wish to ask the noble Lord two questions arising out of his Statement. First, while Members of both Houses, their secretaries, the staff, personnel and all the others who regularly use the Palace of Westminster are probably outnumbered by visitors and others who come daily for one reason or another, would it not be a good idea for the staff, secretaries and personnel to have on their photographic identification passes the Westminster portcullis crest which members of both Houses have on theirs, and so reduce the hazard?
Secondly, is it not the case that one cannot look at the security of each House separately as if it were a separate entity, and one must look at the Palace of Westminster as a whole? Therefore, is there not something to be said for setting up a Joint Committee of both Houses specifically to keep an eye on security, with Black Rod and the Serjeant-at-Arms in
1922
attendance, and for expert advice to be made available?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, perhaps I may deal with those last two questions first. In regard to the staff, including secretaries and the like, this is a matter to which special consideration needs to be given. I am sure the noble Lord will appreciate that one of the dangers of too wide a distribution of passes is the fact that considerable dangers can be created owing to loss of passes, and so on. But this is a matter which we are looking at. In regard to co-ordination between the two Houses, this fact has been recognised. One must take into account the fact that each House is responsible to itself, but I understand that the Chairmen of the respective Committees in the Commons and in the Lords meet with their officials and seek the highest degree of co-ordination.
I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Aberdare and Lord Amulree, for the welcome they have given to this Statement. In regard to passes, I must not anticipate the Report of the Offices Committee which will be considered by this House to-morrow, but there are some recommendations contained in it. I hope the House will be able to accept that Report. Clearly, it would be of great advantage to all those who are responsible for access to this building if every Member were to carry a pass—I hope voluntarily, but, if the House wills otherwise, by compulsion. It would certainly make the burden on our officials a good deal easier.

CALCULATION OF REDUNDANCY PAYMENTS ORDER 1974
4.5 p.m.
BARONESS BIRK BARONESS BIRK rose to move, That the Draft Calculation of Redundancy Payments Order 1974, laid before the House on July 24, be approved. The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move that the Calculation of Redundancy Payments Order 1974, a draft of which was laid before this House on July 24, 1974, be approved. As your Lordships will know this Order replaces the Redundancy Payments (Calculation of Payments) Order which was laid in draft before the House on July 19 and has now been withdrawn. I must apologise for any inconvenience or confusion which this has caused, but a drafting error was

1923
picked up only at the eleventh hour. I am glad to say that the Order at present before the House is now correct.
The substance of this Order is to increase from £40 to £80 the maximum allowance of a week's pay which may be used in the calculation of a payment under the Redundancy Payments Act 1965, which was introduced under the then Labour Government. Some of your Lordships present here to-day will be familiar with the operation of this Act, but in case there are some who are not, and as it is of considerable economic and social importance, I will try to explain briefly some of the background.
The Act can be described as having two main objectives, both of which are extremely important to our economy and also for social justice. First, it requires employers to make compensation payments to redundant workers to compensate employees for the loss of their jobs, for the loss of security, and during that time the possible loss of pension rights, fringe benefits or earnings which may result from an enforced job change. Secondly, it aims to increase the mobility of labour. Mobility of labour is essential for the economic flexibility that is required if we are to increase our productivity, which is so essential in this country to-day. The two are linked together, since if the level of compensation is not adequate there will quite naturally be resistance to what may well be highly desirable changes.
For example, the introduction of new and more efficient technological methods by means of improved machinery could certainly be delayed, and the problems of overmanning, which are hard to deal with anyhow, are even harder to eliminate if people do not feel they can get an adequate redundancy payment when they are laid off. We must surely all agree that the efficient use of manpower, particularly skilled manpower, is essential to the economic well-being of this country. For this reason alone I am sure your Lordships will agree that any reasonable measure which is directed to this end must be welcome. But it has become increasingly clear over the years that, due to wage increases, the Act is progressively lagging behind in its aim to provide adequate compensation for the bulk of the working population.
A redundancy payment—as I am sure your Lordships are aware—takes the form of a lump sum calculated on a scale related to weekly pay, age and length of service. If I may give an example, for each year of service between the ages of 41 and 65, or 60 in the case of women—and I must hastily say that this applies to men and women—it is worth one and a half weeks' pay. Each year of service from the age of 22 to 40 is worth one week's pay, and each year of service from the age of 18 to 21 is worth half-a-weeks' pay. Years of continuous service are counted up to a maximum of 20 and any weekly pay in excess of £40 is dis. regarded. This is the situation at the moment. This means the maximum redundancy payment at present is £1,200 and this will be payable to a man with 20 years' service who is between the ages of 41 and 64, and earning £40 a week or more.
Under the new earnings limit which would come into being, the Order has provided that the maximum payment would be £2,400, but comparatively few will qualify for such an amount. The case for increasing the weekly earnings limit, as I am sure noble Lords will agree, is largely self-evident. The average gross weekly earnings since 1965 have more than doubled. The most recent detailed statistics available, which are those given in the New Earnings Survey of 1973, published last October in the Department of Employment Gazette, show that by April, 1973, average gross weekly earnings for men, excluding overtime pay, increased from approximately £18 to over £37. On these figures alone, a clear case can be made for doubling the £40 limit, as we propose to do.
Some of your Lordships may wonder, as I did myself, why I am not quoting earnings for women. This is only because men on average earn more than women, but women's earnings have increased in much the same proportion, and in many cases, women are now beginning to get the benefits of the Equal Pay Act, although the full benefits, in the case of most women, have still to come. However, what is really relevant to this Order is what a person is earning, and whether the compensation can be regarded as adequate in relation to their earnings.
My Lords, a further important consideration is that, while in 1965 only a

1925
small proportion of the working population was earning in excess of £40 a week, only about 3 per cent. were above the maximum. To-day a substantial percentage, nearly 40 per cent. of the working population of both manual and non-manual workers are earning in excess of this figure. It is evident that as the limit stands at the moment, the middle ranks of management, technical staff, certain white collar workers and higher paid manual workers—who in general are the skilled workers—are increasingly being discriminated against. Therefore, we must aim to provide adequate compensation under the statutory scheme for most employees. I will immediately admit it to be true that the £80 limit will exclude the higher pay of such people as top managers and executives, but economically there has to be a limit. I think it fair here to make the point that people in this more limited category still qualify for the statutory payment, and in addition have more and more benefit under private arrangements in the event of redundancy. Certainly the impresion I have—together with a great many other people—is that this is happening at an increasing rate. We have here a trend which I believe to be right, where management is taking a greater social responsibility. This is going hand in hand with the statutory responsibility.
My Lords, I now turn to the question of cost. The average redundancy payment is currently of the order of £400. It is estimated that this would rise by approximately 20 per cent. to £480. Also, it is true that there will be additional costs for employers. In the first instance, the obligation to make a redundancy payment rests on the dismissing employer, but part of the cost is spread over employers throughout industry by the operation of the Redundancy Fund, which is controlled and managed by the Secretary of State for Employment. This Fund is financed by employers' contributions and from it employers are reimbursed 50 per cent. of any statutory redundancy payment which they make. Thus, although employers will have to meet in full the increased costs in the first instance, they will be able to recover half of the cost in the form of rebate from the Redundancy Fund.
So far as the rates of contribution to the Redundancy Fund are concerned, current contributions which amount to 6·3p for men and 2·9p for women are collected together with employers' National Insurance contributions. In April, 1975, when the National Insurance contributions become earnings-related, the redundancy contribution will be 0·2 per cent. of the earnings on which those contributions are levied. It is therefore estimated that the earnings-related contributions will in practice generate sufficient income in future years to meet the charges which will accrue to the Fund on the basis of the average redundancy rate. There are approximately 250,000 claims a year on the fund. This is over most of the period during which the Act has been in operation.
Finally, I should like to say that this is an instance where the Government have not been under heavy pressure to make this improvement, but they have been concerned that this should be done. The Government have also received individual representations from time to time from the ordinary worker who does not consider he is getting a fair deal. As things stand at the moment, he certainly is not. It is also evident that if nothing is done, the position will only become worse. The higher-paid redundant worker will increasingly be penalised by the limit as his wages rise. This is not a situation which we feel can be allowed to continue. We are proposing this step to remedy the situation before demand so increases that it can no longer be ignored.
My Lords, your Lordships may query why there has not been an increase over the last few years since the Act came into being in 1965. While, as I have indicated, there will be additional cost to those employers who require to make redundancy payments to workers earning more than £40 a week, I would emphasise that we are seeking to do no more than restore the coverage of the scheme substantially to what it was in 1965. Indeed, the statutory scheme can be regarded as establishing a minimum level for redundancy payments. Some employers have introduced schemes which are more generous than the Act, and for them there could be even more benefit, since in some cases they will be able to claim a higher rebate from the Fund and thus offset, in

1927
part at least, the higher cost of their private arrangements.
My Lords, I have no hesitation in recommending to your Lordships that you approve this increase from £40 to £80 in the maximum amount of a week's pay which may be used in the calculation of payments under the Redundancy Payments Act, 1965. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Calculation of Redundancy Payments Order, 1974, laid before the House on July 24, be approved.—(Baroness Birk.)
4.19 p.m.
LORD BELSTEAD: My Lords, I am not entirely sure the House will have realised as the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, assumed, that this Order replaces the Order which was tabled on July 19. I think I am right in saying the Joint Committee drew attention to the drafting in one part of the original Order. I should like to express the appreciation of noble Lords on this side of the House for the care taken by the Department concerned in withdrawing the original Order and in putting the matter right.
The noble Baroness has given a very full explanation, both of the background and of the objects of this Order. I for one am most grateful to her. If I am right in thinking that the amount of pay which is to be computed under the Order has remained exactly at the same figure of £40 ever since the parent Act was brought in in 1965, may I make it quite clear that we on this side of the House would accept that this Order is necessary to ensure the aims of the Act which are, as the noble Baroness explained to the House, to see that those aims are achieved.
May I ask the noble Baroness one question only. Am I right in thinking, from what the noble Baroness said about the working of redundancy pay, that the Government take the view that the Redundancy Fund under the arrangements now will remain buoyant? This is obviously a most important matter for both employers and employees. As the noble Baroness explained in her remarks, there is the most important consideration from an employer's point of view that 50 per cent. of the contribution can be recovered from the Fund. I am asking whether the Government take the view
1928
that under this Order—so far as they can see—the Fund will remain buoyant.
If the noble Baroness can give me an assurance on that point, in addition to us accepting the Order I am sure that it will be welcomed.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, all sides of the House will welcome this Order as a contribution towards improving and increasing the free mobility of labour. Reference has already been made to the fact that this takes the place of an Order which was withdrawn due to drafting error. Due tribute has been paid to the officials concerned in providing the substitution at early notice. I should like to take this opportunity to underline and emphasise the contribution made by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments whose sharp eyes and careful attention to this Order was responsible for that effort on the part of the Minister.
LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELAND: My Lords, I welcome the statement made by my noble friend Lady Birk, because I was in at the beginning of this idea of redundancy payment. I was in at the beginning for very humanitarian reasons, because in times of slackness of trade men were simply thrown on to the streets and very rarely did they have an opportunity of going back to the job that they had left. Some measure of security was needed. This was discussed on the National Economic Development Council at that time, and pressure was then exerted on what was the Labour Government to do something about redundancy. It would have its value not only in its humanitarian activities, but it would also prove of value at a time when technological improvements were demanding mobility of labour.
There were two great problems. One was to get the money for the new techniques. The other was to get the skilled men into the new techniques. As matters stood before that, if a man became unemployed he simply dashed to the nearest job he could get and very often he became a round peg in a square hole. So much of this happened that it was detrimental to the economy of this country. The redundancy payments scheme at that time eased the situation so that men now began to be drafted into jobs for which they were extremely suitable. However, I have sat on the Redundancy Tribunal

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dealing with these cases over the intervening years and watched its developments.
One of the most important points is that we have now moved from simply dealing with manual workers, whether they be skilled or unskilled, and in dealing with them quite an amount of good has been done. I have seen employers coming in with an off-hand attitude towards the unemployment of people whom they had employed for years, but who received the shock of their lives when they found they had to pay something to a man they had taken on. This meant they were careful whom they took on, and when they had to discharge them they saw that it was for a very good reason.
The most important development I observed over those years was that young executives were now coming to the Redundancy Court, the men on whom we depend for the intelligent direction of the highly sophisticated industry which is developing inside this country. If I have any complaint about this Order it is that it is not sufficient to bring the advantages up to the higher-paid young executives in this country to give them those advantages which they are undoubtedly seeking. It has been said, I think with a good deal of truth, that because of the problems we have in this country many young executives are seeking positions abroad and we cannot afford to lose their skills. With a scheme of this character and adequate compensation, when technological improvements debar them from continuing the job they have at the present time, this is a much greater attraction for young executives—as well as for skilled workers in this country—to stay in this country.
As at the time of the Bill's inception way back in 1965, we have considerable sympathy from the Conservative Party in this matter, and I should not like to take away any of the advantages we would have from their sympathy. But it is essentially a Bill and an Act and now an Order which has stemmed from the T.U.C's concern with unemployment. Frankly, I am not at all sure that, do what any Government will in this country, we are going to avoid unemployment in the future. As it is something that will deal with a crisis of that character, and because it is something that will assist us in getting round pegs in round
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holes in the technological developments that exist in this country, I give a warm, heartfelt welcome to the statement of my noble friend Lady Birk.
BARONESS BIRK: My Lords, I thank the three noble Lords who have supported this Order. May I answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Belstead. First, Yes, I can assure him that the Redundancy Fund will remain buoyant, given that the redundancy rate remains roughly at the average of the present time. That brings me to the point raised by my noble friend Lord Douglass of Cleveland in the interesting speech he made on this Order. He made a point with which I have a great deal of sympathy, as to why there should be this limit of £80. One could ask why there should be any limit at all. I regret the answer is that at the present time one could certainly not argue for a State scheme to provide a cover irrespective of earnings. Also, we have to strike some kind of balance between the contribution levied and the demands which can be made on the fund, otherwise we should be in the situation raised by the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, where the Redundancy Fund could no longer be buoyant.
However, I take the point—and I agree with the thinking behind the point raised by my noble friend Lord Douglass—that it is essential that the young executives and other executives should be brought into it as well as other workers in the field. That is why I stressed, when I was moving the Order, how important it is that private arrangements should be encouraged and that social responsibility should be shown by management as well as by the State. That is what is happening at the moment.
I am also grateful to the noble Lord for stressing the importance of mobility of labour. One of the things that these payments also do is to get round—as he so rightly put it—the problem of the square peg in the round hole. It also enables the worker to have this amount of securities in order that he can move house and move from one place to another. One of the great faults in the economy of our country is the slow mobility of labour. I should also like to thank my noble friend Lord Peddie for his remarks and encouragement on this Order. Like my noble friend Lord

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Douglass of Cleveland, he also has a great deal of experience in this field. May I thank the noble Lords and commend the Order to them.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

POLICING OF LONDON AIRPORTS BILL
4.30 p.m.
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, I understand that no Amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript Amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move, pursuant to Standing Order No. 45(2), that the Order of Commitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Commitment be discharged.—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. 44, having been suspended pursuant to Resolution, Bill read 3a and passed.

INDEPENDENT BROADCASTING AUTHORITY (No. 2) BILL
4.32 p.m.
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. This Bill seeks to extend for a period of three years to July 31, 1979, the statutory basis on which the Independent Broadcasting Authority provides its television and local sound broadcasting services. Its purpose is to allow adequate time for a committee of inquiry into the future of broadcasting under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Annan, to undertake its task. The proposed extension provides two and a half years for the Annan Committee to complete its work and to report, and it also allows a similar period of two and a half years for the Government to consider the Report, to formulate their conclusions and to prepare legislation and put it before Parliament This brings us to 1979, and the Government consider that this provides a reasonable period in
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which to consider very carefully the decisions which will influence broadcasting in the post-1979 period.
The Bill before the House introduces no new change in the Authority's responsibilities, functions or duties. The intention is that the present arrangements under the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act of 1973, as amended by the Independent Broadcasting Act 1974, which is due to expire on July 31, 1976, should continue unchanged until July 31, 1979. A similar extension will be arranged for the B.B.C. which, as noble Lords will know, operates under the provisions of a Charter. In addition, the life of that agreement will similarly need to be ex-extended to the same date, namely, July 31, 1979. The Bill is short and uncontroversial, but essential in providing for the continuance of the Independent Broadcasting Authority for a reasonable minimum period during which the broadcasting services for the post-1979 period can be considered. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, for explaining the need for this Bill. We on this side of the House, in spite of the fact that we hold the noble Lord, Lord Annan, in great respect and affection, want to know why this Committee is really necessary. A period of two and a half years is going to be needed for the Committee to report and another two and a half years after that before anything can be done on it. It seems a tremendously long time before making the vital decisions which are necessary.
One question which I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is: are we going to have to wait five years before anything is done about the allocation of the fourth channel? My right honourable friend Sir John Eden, when he was Minister of Posts and Telecommunications in another place, undertook to make a Statement in another place about what was going to happen to the fourth channel before any such Bill as this was granted. Can the noble Lord, Lord Harris, say whether any such Statement will be made on this? As I said, five years seems a very long time to wait for this useful fourth channel, and I hope

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he will consider whether it could be allocated to Independent Television with possibly some provision included in it for taking over some of the responsibility from the B.B.C. for the Open University programmes.
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, to answer the two points which the noble Lord has just raised, first of all I agree that it is a long time to wait but if I may strike what I trust will be a small note of controversy, although agreeing with him I would only draw his attention to the fact that had the previous Government not decided to abandon the decision of the Labour Government of 1970 to set Lord Annan's Committee to work (the noble Lord will recall that the noble Lord, Lord Annan, was asked to undertake this task in 1970 and when the change of Government took place the incoming Government decided that the noble Lord, Lord Annan, should not proceed) it would by now have finished its Report, and by next year we should probably have new legislation dealing with the I.B.A. I will give way to the noble Lord if he wishes.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord says "by next year". But he contemplates now—and there was a Home Office Statement to this effect—that consideration and legislation will take two and a half years. All I was going to say was that we thought there was going to be too much delay then; and if we were right on that, how much more delay is the new Committee going to cause now?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, I would repeat the point that if the noble Lord, Lord Annan, had continued his work in 1970, then by next year a decision on the fourth channel would have been arrived at. Unhappily, in 1970 the Conservative Government, for reasons which they may well have regarded as reasonable, decided that the noble Lord, Lord Annan, should not continue his inquiry. All I am saying to the noble Lord is that in consequence of that we will certainly have to wait until the noble Lord. Lord Annan, has reported before making a decision on the fourth channel. If the noble Lord, Lord Annan, and the distinguished Committee over
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which he is now presiding, are going to do a serious and worthwhile job there is no point in the Government at this time prejudging one of their most important conclusions. Therefore I fear that all I can say to the noble Lord on the precise question he asked is that there is no question of the Government making any decision on the fourth channel until the noble Lord, Lord Annan, and his Committee have reported.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, since the matter of the Annan Committee has been raised may I ask the noble Lord a question? So far as I recollect it was not actually repeated in a Statement in this House, but I think I read one weekend that this Committee has now had its composition made up but there were no details of the terms of reference nor indeed of whether individuals or organisations could submit evidence. May we know a little more about this? Perhaps later we could have a debate on the terms of reference, or is the noble Lord in a position to say what would be expected of the Committee and how wide will be its terms of reference?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, in regard to the two questions which my noble friend has raised, first regarding the terms of reference, these were published at the time my right honourable friend the Home Secretary announced his decision to ask the noble Lord, Lord Annan, to take on this responsibility once again, so the terms of reference are a matter of public knowledge, but I will gladly write to my noble friend and advise her of them. I shall be glad at the same time to give her the address to which communications should be sent by organisations and individuals who wish to give evidence to the Annan Committee. In fact, the noble Lord has already indicated that the Committee are anxious to receive evidence from all interested parties, and I will certainly see that we do the best we can to provide information as to where evidence and requests of this sort should be sent.
On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.
Then, Standing Order No. 44 having been suspended, pursuant to Resolution, Bill read 3a and passed.

LOCAL LOTTERIES BILL
4.40 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I wish I thought that this Bill was going through at the same hectic speed as the previous business. It is, of course, essentially concerned with the question of rates, and one only has to mention that word at this particular moment to bring to mind the great wail that has gone up all over the country about astronomical increases and the great burden that is being imposed on many people, to the extent that they are beginning to say that they can hardly bear it. For many years, really very many years, people have searched for alternative sources of local income other than the rating system as we know it, or possibly methods of supplementing it from different sources run in conjunction with rates. Nothing, so far, has emerged except for an increasing tendency for central Government to take over the financial burden of local government expenditure. That, incidentally, always tends in its turn to weaken the local autonomy of the authorities themselves. Until the day before yesterday (or was it Monday?) the figures were that out of a total this year of £5,600 million spent by local authorities, £3,400 million came from central Government, which is well over half, and of the remaining sums £1,100 million came from householders all over the country. I am not certain what the effect of the mini-Budget will have been on those figures, but whatever it is it is only a short term palliative and certainly not intended to be a long-term reorganisation.
My right honourable friend the Member for Crosby was at the Department of the Environment in a very senior capacity in the last Government, and he knew as well as anyone else, and probably better, how much it was desired to find some method of providing some additional local revenue; and when he did rather well in the lottery, I suppose it is, in another place whereby Private Members draw then-Bills, he decided to try to do something to help. Of course, this is a particularly apposite moment to do it, when local authority expenditure is rising fast. I cannot see any hope of this rise stopping because inflation attacks local government; increased salaries apply there, too,
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and there is really no prospect, I think, of a major cut-back in this form of expenditure. What is likely to go is all ! expenditure except on the very basic essentials. There will be paring back; there will be economies, and in general it is going to be a period of very tight money for local government.
All those who spoke in another place on this Bill at its various stages seemed to be in agreement at least on this point; that something needed urgently to be done. What this Bill does is to give to all local authorities at every level, from the biggest down to the parish and community councils, an optional method of supplementing their rate revenue. I say optional; they do not have to do it; they can do it if they wish and they can do it to such extent as they wish. They can do it in order to provide for specific projects of which they give notice in advance. The lottery, if it is to be run at all, is to be designed to achieve a certain purpose, and I will come to the kind of things that are in mind in a moment.
The Bill, therefore, allows such a local lottery not more than once a month and with a limit on the proceeds. The limit is either £6 million or 10 per cent. of the rateable value of the whole of the local authority in question. In fact I think I am right in saying that the £6 million will apply only to a comparatively small number of large local authorities, 34 counties, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Sheffield, Leeds, the Greater London Council, three London boroughs and the City. I think that is all. The others proportionately will have lower limits based on the 10 per cent. of their rateable value. Of course, in the case of parishes, although some are bigger than others, the limit would presumably be very small. That is one limitation upon the way in which these lotteries are to be run.
But there is another very important limitation, upon which the Government insisted in another place, and I am sure rightly, which is to be found in Clause 1(2)(b) and 1(3), whereby regulations are to be made; and the purpose of these regulations is to lay down some common standards for a number of things. For instance. it is thought right that there should be common standards on advertising, on preventing sales to children, on restricting the points where tickets may be sold and on restricting methods of

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distribution; controlling the people employed on this project and methods of remunerating them, and control of house-to-house sales and things of that sort. There are, of course, further possibilities for local rules to be made, but the idea at least is that central Government should provide these basic ground rules.
The proceeds are to go for a purpose which the local authority in question can choose, and they have the opportunity to choose, whenever they like, as often as they like, the sort of things they would like to spend them on. It is thought that they will really be some of the supplementary items. They will not spend it on basic services; they will spend it on some of the amenities, and some of the more pleasant things which are likely to be cut out in a financial economy drive, So there it is; the local government body itself will be able to choose what it wishes to spend the money on. In fact if one looks at Clause 2, it does not say so specifically, but there was no doubt in the discussion in another place that what everybody had in mind was the sort of thing I have just suggested.
There have also been some other methods of regulation imported, largely as a result, I think, of the Government's views on this matter, and perhaps the most important of them is bringing in the Gaming Board. The Gaming Board comes in under Clause 4. First, it has to be told about all details of a local lottery, and it further has the power to scrutinise them and tell the Home Secretary—or I suppose the Secretary of State for Wales—if it thinks there is anything going wrong; then there are all sorts of dreadful penalties imposed whereby a sinning local authority cannot hold any further lotteries for a certain period of time So there is that scrutiny and it all comes, as does most of the rest of gaming, under the control of this now well-known Gaming Board.
There are obviously going to be some objections. The noble Lord, Lord Wigg, would not have put down an Amendment otherwise. However, as I understand it, the Government at least agree in principle that there should be local lotteries. The honourable lady the Parliamentary Under-Secretary described the Bill as experimental, but she did not object to the principle of having local lotteries. What she did not like was
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the size of the limits, and she had two goes in another place to get them reduced and each time she lost the Division. So the limits stay as they were. It may well be that we have them about right, because when one side tries to reduce them and then, on the other hand, I get a letter from the G.L.C. saying that the limit is far too small, there is always the possibility that we are somewhere in the right region.
But I must, in all honesty, remind the House that when the Inter-Departmental Working Committee chaired by Mr. Whitney wrote its Report, they were talking in terms of a very much smaller limit indeed for local lotteries; much smaller indeed than put forward by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary in another place—in a different league altogether. That was the objection of the Government. Certainly the other objection they originally had has disappeared, because my right honourable friend made the bold and daring suggestion that these lotteries should not be taxed, but the onslaught upon him was such that he had to concede that point, and a levy would be collected under this Bill on lotteries as it is on all others, so at least the Treasury will not be losing its revenue that way.
When it comes to the question of the size of it, those of us who support the Bill say that that is a matter of judgment. There is not a great deal of data to go on, but if you make the limit too small then it just will not be worth while for a local authority to run one or a series of these lotteries at all. Staff are scarce at the moment and very precious; it takes a good deal of time and organisation; and if what you get out of it (after paying the prizes, all the expenses and your tax to the Treasury) is a very small sum, then people will not think it worth while and local authorities probably will not go in for it at all.
Therefore, the choice of the limit has been determined to some extent in order to try to make it attractive for people to run lotteries if they wish to.
There have recently sprung up other objections. It was always plain that there was the possibility that people who now are prepared to support other forms of a small lottery—perhaps for sporting or cultural purposes, I know not what—

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might transfer their custom to the new local authority lotteries of these were permitted. Again it is a matter of judgment. I must again, in fairness, remind the House that the Inter-Departmental Working Committee thought that it had found fairly strong indications that there was not an endless source of money for betting and gaming in this country, and that there was not an endless elasticity in the amount that could be extracted willingly from people who would like to go in for a flutter.
But in another place at least there did not seem to be a major onslaught or attack on the Bill on the basis that it was going to spoil the field for sporting, artistic or cultural lotteries, and I do not think this was very seriously canvassed. Not so now, alas! because the Central Council for Physical Recretation has got a whole lot of its members to send identical telegrams to me, and it has got some of its individual members to write letters in identical terms; and there have been other people from the amateur boxers, the people who shoot at Clay-bridge, to the All-England Women's Lacrosse Association, who all take the gravest affront at this measure. All I can say about it is that, rather like the Rehabilitation of Offenders Bill we were discussing yesterday and will revert to to-morrow, it is the most awful pity that they did not notice the Bill at the time when it was in another place.
I am all for these things being discussed, and if noble Lords this afternoon have strong views upon them I hope that they will ventilate them. But it is a great pity, if we come to the end of July on a measure like this which has gone through another place, and there suddenly emerge large objections in principle from those connected with sport, or the Arts, or something else, which were never discussed in another place at all. At any rate, we can put that right by talking about it here, and I certainly would not wish to discourage anybody who wishes to do so. I think that we owe it to those who, at the present moment, depend upon lotteries to raise money for football associations or other forms of activity of that sort, to see, so far as we can, that we are not doing something that damages them. But my difficulty, and I think the difficulty of everybody else, is that there
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really is no firm evidence to go on, and we can only back our judgment.
The only other objection that I have come upon in reading the previous debates in another place is that this was the subject matter that Mr. Whitney's Committee was intended to deal with—at any rate, it was part of his remit—and that there has not been enough public discussion about it since. Certainly that does not apply in this House, because that Committee reported just before Christmas and on January 30 this year we had a full scale debate on the whole subject, initiated by my noble friend Lord Mansfield. I have just read what I said on that occasion, and I have not said anything inconsistent with it to-day. I was speaking at the time of course from the position now held by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich.
We have discussed it; it is not my fault, or the fault of this House, if other people think that they have not discussed it adequately. It has been printed, it is Cmnd. No. 5506) and available ever since Christmas, and all I can say about it is that, as so often seems to be the case, people do not apply their minds to this sort of thing until something turns up which urgently requires them to do so. Now it has turned up, and they are all complaining that they have not bad enough time for thought. I sympathise with people who have a large number of reports and things to look at, to consider, and comment upon, but the other complaint that frequently comes—not least from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner—is that there lie around in sheaves on dusty shelves reports from Government committees on which nobody ever does anything. Here at least is my right honourable friend trying to do something on the subject matter covered by that Report. I hope, therefore, that we shall not again be told, at least this afternoon, that there has not been sufficient discussion on the subject.
I do not think there is anything else in the Bill that I need explain to your Lordships, because it is clear, straightforward and plainly drafted. I look forward very much to hearing the views of those who have now been appraised of the fact that there are objections, and indeed have objections of their own. Of course, I do not know what your Lordships want to do with this Bill, but it has passed all

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its stages in another place; it has had pretty strenuous scrutiny both in Standing Committee and on Report and, as I say, when the Government have tried to intervene they have tended to lose their Divisions—which is a fate that seems to apply in both Houses at the moment, but I hope that we shall not have to deal with a similar blow to the Government here again.
Therefore, I would commend the Bill to your Lordships. It is not a very ambitious Bill. It is, however, one which can come into effect, if a local authority wishes it to, very soon. It will enable them to do something about the problem of providing services, facilities, amenities and other things which they just cannot afford out of rates. It will give them an alternative source of income. In the current attitude towards lotteries, I do not think that it is anything to which anybody is likely to object in principle, although I must remind the House that there are certain people in this country who have moral objections to lotteries. I pay full attention to their case. I do not know whether that case will be argued this afternoon, but I suspect that that group is in a substantial minority. If lotteries are to be in the hands of responsible elected local authorities that, I feel, would be some comfort to them. Therefore, I hope that the House will give the Bill favourable consideration. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
5.1 p.m.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper. May I congratulate the noble Viscount on his excellent speech? If ever I am before a court and I am guilty, I should certainly employ him. He has no case at all. He is very conscious of it. In a gentle, skilful way what he has done is to attack those who have ventured at the 59th minute of the eleventh hour to wake up, perhaps belatedly, as to what is about to be done to them. Having been as kindly as I can towards him, I trust that at least he will acquit me of the charge that I have come into the list only at the last moment. I assure him that from the moment the Bill was printed I have been sitting outside its hole waiting to
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shoot it, strangle it, cut it up into mincemeat. Now the time has come.
First, I think that the House should reject the Bill. With the case I shall present I hope I can persuade the noble Viscount to withdraw it. Unfortunately, the Rules of your Lordships' House are such that a Bill which has come from another place cannot be withdrawn. I learned the other evening from the mouth of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, that your Lordships' House is not governed by precedent. He did so, looking at me in a rebuking way, to remind me that I was not now in the House of Commons but in the House of Lords and that precedent does not matter. We make our own rules as we go along; so what is good enough for the noble Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, is good enough for me. Therefore, when I put on the Order Paper a Motion, That the Bill should be read in six months' time, I did not mean this as it is normally meant as a means to reject it. Far from it. What I mean is what I say and I say what I mean.
In terms of helping local authorities the Bill is excellent. Of course we all pay rates and if we can persuade somebody else to pay our rates for us or ease the burden in our rate bill so much the better. That will get enthusiastic support. But here is a proposition which has entered into not only Governmental thinking but into the thinking of anyone short of money, including the Church. I have never gone to a church garden fete in which I have not been asked to buy a ticket or two on the judging of the weight of the cake cooked by the vicar's wife. I am dense in these matters. I have no moral judgments. I have never been able to—
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, that is not a lottery, that is a test of skill.
LORD WIGG: The noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, should do her homework. One of the difficulties about the Bill is that the difference which would make a distinction between it making a bet, and therefore subject to general betting duty, and it being a transaction which would be subject to pool betting, has never been worked out.
I am sorry to digress, but the distinction seems to be that if one buys a lottery ticket with a number on it that

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apparently is a lottery. If on the other hand one buys a ticket and it is associated, shall we say, with the Derby, that is not a lottery, but it comes under the general betting duty. It is a distinction so fine that my mind boggles. I much prefer to return to the vicar's cake. The point I sought to make was that I have never been able to understand the distinction in morals between buying a ticket for sixpence or 1p if you like, which may entitle me to sample the vicar's wife's cooking and doing as I have just done, backing a horse at Sandown which, unfortunately, has not won. I cannot understand the difference. However, I do not wish to attempt to pursue it this afternoon.
May I return to the Bill? On May 3, 1974, it was introduced in the House of Commons under a different name. It was then called the Local Revenue Bill, It received its Second Reading. It set out to enable the local authorities to promote lotteries, to charge fees for application for planning permission and to levy a rating surcharge upon the occupiers of hotels. In the course of proceedings in another place, two of those objects were dropped. The one that remained was the power to promote lotteries. It completed its procedure in another place but changed its name from the Local Revenue Bill to the Local Lotteries Bill.
While I accept and indeed support the desire to raise money to aid local rates, in my submission the Bill overlooks one fundamental fact. In football pools we have in Britain that which fills the function of lotteries in other countries. It is, I think, to the credit of a previous Labour Administration that they rarely claimed credit for the things they did well but they inherited from the Conservative Administration revenues from betting and gaming of £33 million in 1962–63. To-day, that figure is £200 million and, of course, it could be substantially increased.
I am not seeking to make any Party point, but if the problem was handled with competence that sum could be greatly increased. What I mean by competence is that the totalisator would have to be run efficiently and we should have to persuade this Chancellor, as all other Chancellors, that they may know a great deal about the economy but they know
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mighty little about the social habits of the British people and how they bet. The way they bet is to try to win large sums with small stakes. Hence in Great Britain we have one of three bets, win, place or "any-to-come". The "any-to-come" bet takes the form of doubles, trebles, accumulators, Yankees, pattents and round-the-clock. I could go on with this subject, but basically the "any-to-come" bet is the equivalent of a lottery and manifests itself in its more aggravated form, if I may so describe it, in football pools. Here we have what is the tiercé in other countries. As long as this country has football pools—and the sum rose as a result of measures introduced by Mr. Maudling when Chancellor from £80 million to nearly £200 million taxed stakes—and we accept, as I hope your Lordships will accept, that there is a limit on the money that can be gambled, the possibility of getting added money is not very high. If one takes it from A to give it to B there must be less in added money. There is not, as some think, "gold in them thar hills." The betting and lottery laws in this country have got into the most almighty mess.
The reason why the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, can make the charge he does with justification, that people have only just woken up and started to squeal, is because they never thought that anyone would be so foolish as to introduce a Bill of this kind. Secondly, they have a greater faith in the House of Commons than have I. They thought that no House of Commons in its senses would ever pass such a Bill. So the home of common sense is your Lordships' House.
Let us examine this Bill with just a little care. The Bill itself—and I am surprised that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, has not spotted this—imposes a duty on the Gaming Board, which, after all, is not a statutory board, although it describes itself as such. It exists under the umbrella of the Home Office; its staff, its costs, are borne on the Home Office. Who is going to pay the expenses? I cannot understand why, in another place, it was not realised that for this Bill to be implemented in the form in which it is needed a Money Resolution; and, of course, you cannot get a Money Resolution on a Private Member's Bill. Indeed, I should like to say to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, if I may, in

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order to convince him of the fact that it is not new to me, that I drafted an Amendment long ago for this Bill:
"That the Gaming Board for Great Britain shall be entitled to recover all fees and expenses which have been incurred".
The Bill is imperfect to that extent; that it imposes a duty on a Government Department and does not say where the money is coming from.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I think I should just remind the House that it was the Home Office themselves who introduced this clause into the Bill. It was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary who moved the clause, which was, of course, accepted in Committee; and I have little doubt that, had there been any need for a Money Resolution, this fact would have been brought to their attention.
LORD WIGG: Again, my Lords, if I may say so, the noble Viscount has a greater faith than I have in what happens. I have studied this Bill from the beginning, and one of the most extraordinary things about it is that on Second Reading it was moved by the Minister of State for the Environment, a Department which was not concerned with the Bill at all, whereas the Treasury, who are vitally concerned about it, never had a spokesman. Furthermore, the Under-Secretary for the Home Office, who spoke on Second Reading and who linked this Bill, as did the noble Viscount, with the Departmental Committee on Lotteries, spoke, presumably with the authority of the Government, as if that Report had been accepted, whereas we know very well it has not been accepted. That Committee (if I may again digress) was set up by the previous Administration—and here I want to be as kind as I can be—because they did not have the guts to make their minds up about one fundamental question.
At the present moment there is a limit on bingo, but no limit on football pools. Therefore, as the Government were unable on the eve of an Election to make up their minds, to take such a decision which, whatever way it went, would be unpopular, they set up a Departmental Committee under the chairmanship of a Home Office official. Then, when the Report came last December, they did nothing about it. The present Government in
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herited it, and at least they did this: they invited people to make comments and to get those comments in before the end of May. That is the situation at the present time; but let me proceed, for otherwise I shall be detaining your Lordships for too long.
It is interesting that, on the morrow of the completion of the Bill in another place, the right honourable Graham Page, who was responsible, wrote an article for the Daily Express welcoming this Bill and saying what was going to happen. In that article he said it was the concern of 378 authorities. I did some sums, and the number of authorities which is in fact concerned, which can take advantage of this Bill in some form or other, is no less than 8,737, which is a margin of error which I should have thought was enough to justify your Lordships sitting; up and taking notice.
Now who are the objectors? A Member of this House, not wishing to weary your Lordships with a speech, has asked me to draw your Lordships' attention to a letter written by the Secretary of the Gaming Board of Great Britain—a body which, as I say, exists as part of the Home Office; a body for which the Home Office are responsible. He sent this document to many of the sports organisations in this country, but this particular letter was written to the Football League. It said:
"Sir Stanley Raymond considers that if this Bill passes into law it will throw the whole lottery situation into confusion, and it is in the interest of all concerned, and particularly those concerned with charities and sports, that amendment of the lottery law should await general legislation based on the Report of the Interdepartmental Working Party on Lotteries, on which the Home Office have already invited comment".
So here we have the Home Office, Sir Stanley Raymond, writing up and down the country saying that this is a piece of nonsense and that it should await the later legislation which should be introduced by the Government. The reason why the Football League now protest—and they have protested to many Members of your Lordships' House—is not that they are late in the day, as it were, not because they have been dilatory, but because they did not know the considered views of Sir Stanley Raymond and others until they got that letter.

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That is not all. I have a telegram—in this case the telegram is addressed to me—from the Secretary of the Football Association. He said:
"In the interests of the smaller football clubs and other sporting organisations greatly dependent on lotteries, the Football Association is strongly opposed to the Local Revenue Bill having its Second Reading in the Lords to-morrow, and we ask you to give support in defeating the Bill in its present form".
In addition to that we have the Central Council of Physical Recreation, of which the President is Prince Phillip. I mention that, again not to involve the Royal Family in any way; but this is a body with which the present Minister of Sport was actively associated, and I believe still is. It reads thus:
"The Central Council of Physical Recreation, representing over 200 governing and other bodies in sport and recreation, asks you to vote against the Local Lotteries Bill on Thursday the 25th July in the House of Lords. Sport and recreation clubs are desperately short of money and are dependent for a large part of their income on their own raffle schemes. For the last three years the income from raffles has been declining, and any further large-scale competition will inevitably cause many sports clubs to close down".
So you have powerful institutions worried about the effect of this.
But that is not all. Only recently the Conservative Party defeated the Government in another place on a Budget proposal that the pool betting duty should apply to those clubs, sporting activities and organisations like the spastics which keep themselves going on the basis of lotteries. Your Lordships will recollect that there was a decision, I think by your Lordships' House or by the Law Lords, that, in the form in which they were, "Spot the Ball" competitions were illegal, and the Government (I think the Conservative Government) enacted a measure, the Pool Competitions Act. There are a number of organisations licensed under that Act—and here, if I may, I will quote from the Gaming Board Report. I hope the House will pardon me if I read out a lengthy list, but your Lordships ought to know what you are doing if you pass this Bill, and ought to know how wide it is.
These are the clubs and the beneficiaries, and the list starts with Scotland: the Celtic Football Club; the Chelsea Pools Association; then, a professional organisation situated in Southampton which covers the Southampton and District
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Spastics Association, the Winchester and District Spastics Association, the Bournemouth, Poole and District Spastics Association, the Portsmouth and District Spastics Association, the Andover and District Spastics Association and the Gos-port and District Spastics Association; the Dundee United Sportsmens' Club; the Huddersfield Town Football Club; the Manchester United Development Association; then, Pembroke (C. & P.) Limited, which covers cancer and polio research; the Pools Clearing House Limited of Bristol, which covers the Norwich City and Poole Town Football Clubs; Rangers Football Club, Singette Limited of Cardiff, which covers a number of charities. Sky Blue Pools Limited, which covers the Coventry City Football Club. Top Ten Promotions, which covers the Friends of Spastics League, the Sembal Trust and the Van Neste Foundation, and the Warwickshire Cricket Club Supporters' Association. All those organisations carry on their affairs and make a profit for the beneficent purposes which they exist to support, and all of them will be affected by the Bill.
What is perfectly clear is that the opposition to this is not new. There is an organisation called the Group of Self-Supporting Pools and it came out against local lotteries for assisting the rates in general and against Mr. Page's Bill in particular from the word go, because it was very conscious that, if the measure goes through, it will have the most disastrous results. Being charitably minded—as I hope I am myself—the organisation realised that the promoters of the Bill did not know what they were doing. I have mentioned one figure—a figure of 378 authorities, it was thought—it is over 8,000, but what is the total amount? I have made an effort to do some sums and I have done my best to get them checked. I have been to the Ministry of the Environment, and the figure which could be taken out is of the order of £1,000 million a year. It will not be, for reasons I shall go into in a moment, but it is perfectly clear that those who have been running these organisations are fearful of the consequences.
My Lords, I now come to the point of what is likely to be extracted from the running of lotteries by the local authorities, if your Lordships pass the Bill

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through all its stages. Let us take the biggest authority of all—the G.L.C, which has been the first in the field. The G.L.C. sent out a circular on May 21—which was almost as soon as the Bill saw the light of day—which seems, again, to answer the point made by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. The G.L.C. did some sums, based, I presume, upon Mr. Graham Page's figures: it was estimated that there would be a distribution of some 40 per cent. by way of prizes and some 40 per cent. to the project. The G.L.C. did its sums in the following way: assuming that it ran a lottery of the largest amount permissible—£500,000 a month—it would not, the Council said, be worth running unless it could offer prizes of £225,000. Mr. Page himself has said that, of that figure, £100,000 should go to the prize-winner, and that the project should receive £225,000. The expenses would be £43,500 and the reserve fund would be £6,500, making a total of £500,000. But what they forgot—and I telephoned them and pointed out that there was an omission—was the 40 per cent. pools betting duty. To be perfectly frank, I do not believe that one can sell two million tickets a month at 25p each and that the only expenses incurred will be £43,500. The G.L.C. is the largest authority and, from it right down to the Parish Councils, none will get the money it thinks it will if the Bill is passed. All the Bill will do is to add confusion to an already very confused situation.
Before I leave this subject and sit down, I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to another measure which was introduced last Friday—the Safety of Sports Grounds Bill. This measure had its origin with the previous administration. It was debated in this House, went through all the procedures here and went to another place, where the Genera] Election killed it. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, will recollect the argument which took place on that occasion because I was his ally then, as I really am now, in so far as he is a servant of truth. What did he argue? He argued against those on the Opposition Benches who said, through the mouth of my noble friend Lord Garnsworthy that the Bill was a bad one and that it was based upon the Wheatley Report. It may be remembered that at an early stage the
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noble Viscount, Lord Colville, said that Lord Wheatley had based his Report and advice on the proposition that there should be no Government money. I was quick to point out to him that Lord Wheatley did not say that: following the Ibrox disaster, in paragraph 60 of the Report, what he said was:
"I went to the Treasury and the Treasury said, 'No money'. If there is no money, this is the kind of report I offer."
The House will recollect that there were many speakers—not including me—on the Labour Benches who said that the Government ought to put up the money, but, of course, that was when they were in Opposition. When the Bill reached another place, the present Minister of Sport, Mr. Howell, was quite dogmatic, saying that the Bill was no good and that the Government should put up some money.
That was the position until last Friday afternoon, when almost the same Bill appeared with notes from the Home Office for guidance. What does it say? The Labour Party now says exactly what the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, said when he was on the Government Benches. "No money." What is to happen, therefore? As sure as night follows day—as I said on that Bill and I now repeat—there will be another Ibrox. Your Lordships should not let the crocodile tears trickle down your cheeks nor should Members of another place ask why something is not done: Ibrox is one of many similar disasters and we all know that it will cost astronomical sums to put right. The Bill and the accompanying memorandum suggest that not everything should be done at once, but that gradual steps should be taken and improvements made gradually. Do it gradually one may, but, with logic which I do not understand, the international grounds are to be tackled first, although they are the grounds which are the best anyway: the risks are on those grounds which happen to have a run in the Cup and whose grounds are not very safe, but there will be no Government money, despite what the Labour Party said in Opposition. Now they say, "It is to come from lotteries".
That is the proposal of the Government. They will get the money from lotteries. A thousand million pounds is being wagered in the form of betting in this country; at present, large sums are

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going to the spastics and to football supporters' clubs. The Government will come along and force not only football grounds but, in the long run, sporting activities of all kinds—including horse racing, if the attendances at the courses come within the orbit of the orders—to get the money they want from lotteries. This does not make sense; it is sheer nonsense.
If neither the Government nor the Opposition will act, presumably they think that there are no votes in it; but T believe that, if there was a sane approach to what noble Lords might like to regard as a human frailty—if there are, in fact, astronomical sums being wagered in small amounts and this human frailty can be turned to advantage—it would be nice, for example, if we had a football training centre. We are the only advanced country in the world which is concerned with soccer and which has none. I had a feeling of shame and of chagrin when I listened on that Sunday afternoon to the final of the World Cup, to which an audience of 1,200 million was listening, and Great Britain was not even at the races. We shall not be at the races so far as football is concerned or any other sport. It does not matter whether your Lordships' approach to it is in terms of participant or spectator sports, it is clear from the Safety at Sports Grounds Bill that there is no money coming from the Government. Other sources have to be looked at.
I shall not weary your Lordships by giving details of how I think it could be approached, but I believe that it could. I believe that without cost to the Government a sensible, sane approach could be made to this problem. But to-day is the opportunity for your Lordships to say that the method indicated in this Bill is not the way. On the other hand, I pay my tribute to those who have worked on it, because even if at the end of the road they find a cul-de-sac and have to turn back, it is not a waste of time because it has demonstrated that those who believe that the solutions to all our problems, whether safety on football grounds, or care of the spastics and that they are sure of a few bob to solve the problem by saying, "Have a lottery", are wrong. If you are going to run
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lotteries it is a highly skilled professional business, not a job for amateurs. If this Bill is passed this afternoon your Lordships will have underlined one simple fact, and that is that once again you have forgotten that the claim made for the existence of this House is twofold: a revising body and a delaying body. I have said some hard things on your Lordships' failure to act as a delaying body in connection with the Common Market. There it may well be that Party interests were involved. But here I am making an appeal, across and beyond Party, and saying that this House should exercise its power to delay. For that reason, I hope your Lordships will support my Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("now") and insert ("this day six months").—(Lord Wigg.)
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER (LORD GOSCHEN): My Lords, the original Question was, That this Bill be now read a second time, since when an Amendment has been moved to leave out "now" and insert "this day six months". The Question I therefore have to put is that this Amendment be agreed to.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I allude for a moment to the question of the vicar's cake. The noble Lord said that he could see no moral difference between paying sixpence at a church bazaar for judging the weight of the vicar's cake or putting sixpence on a horse. There is a great difference, because the weight of the vicar's cake runs true to form—though vicars' wives may not run true to form; I do not know about that. But, having reared horses, I can assure the noble Lord—and I am sure he will agree with me—that horses do not always run true to form. Therefore, to judge the weight of the vicar's cake is a question of skill.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, as a lifelong backer of horses I hold the view, and sometimes with profit, and sometimes with none, that betting as opposed to gambling is just as much a skilful operation and a much more precise operation than weighing the vicar's cake, because one would not know whether the vicar's wife had put in sultanas or lead shot.
5.34 p.m.
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, this debate is notable, if nothing else, for two particular features: the first is the temporary presence—I am sure—of the noble Viscount on his Party's Back Benches. I suspect we shall see him elsewhere to-morrow morning when we return to the pleasures of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Bill. The second is the glowing tribute paid to this House by my noble friend Lord Wigg. For both reasons, this debate is notable and I am sure that we much enjoyed the views of my noble friend that this House should save the country from the effects of the behaviour of the elected House. I am particularly happy to say that, because I happen to share his view on this matter as a matter of general principle on this Bill. I know that many people both inside this House and outside it naturally have sympathy with the notion of allowing local authorities, particularly as the noble Viscount said, at this particular time, to raise funds by way of lotteries. I should say straight away that the Government are not, in principle, opposed to this or to other changes in the lotteries law.
The existing law on lotteries, contained in the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963, is already over ten years old and contains financial limitations which were set some years before the passing of the Act. On these grounds alone, there is a case for revision. I would not dissent from the general proposition of my noble friend that the law is in a mess at the moment and that action should be taken to straighten it out. But this is not, just for that reason, in my view a case where there is room for hurried or piecemeal legislation, which frankly this particular Bill before us is. We cannot lose sight of the fact that what we have before us to-day is a piece of social legislation, which closely affects the public interest, and has repercussions for the whole of the law on gambling. The Inter-Departmental Working Party, which reported last December, made a number of proposals for revision of the lotteries law, including a recommendation that local authorities should be permitted to run lotteries. But it was recognised that their proposals involved conflicts of interest, and issues of social and moral
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judgment, which needed careful consideration and discussion.
Following the publication of the Report, as my noble friend Lord Wigg pointed out, the Home Office initiated consultations with various of the interested bodies on their reaction to the Report. Those consultations have now been generally completed, but there has not yet been sufficient time for a proper assessment of opinions or for a final formulation of a coherent policy. We should be reluctant to see legislation hurried through on one aspect of the law before we have a clear picture of the requirements over the whole field. The law on all aspects of betting and gaming is already sufficiently complex without adding further changes which are not well-founded.
But, considerations of timing aside, there are some major objections to the content of the Bill. The Government made it plain, in the various proceedings in another place, and particularly my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, that the Bill, as it stands, is not acceptable to the Government. When the Bill was first introduced, we had two major criticisms, and the noble Viscount alluded to these: first, the absence of any power of control over these lotteries; and then the scale proposed. The first of these objections has to some extent been met, as the result of an Amendment, Clause 1(2) of the Bill now provides that the Secretary of State for the Home Department may prescribe provisions to be included in any schemes made under the Bill. Such a provision is, I believe, essential. Lotteries—and this includes local authority lotteries—are ultimately subject to the criminal law like any other form of gambling, and must be closely supervised. And obviously, if that supervision is to be effective, there must be power to lay down basic rules of conduct to act as guidelines.
As to our criticism of the scale of the proposed lotteries, the Bill as it stands would allow local authorities to run lotteries with a maximum annual turnover of £6 million or one-tenth of their aggregate rateable value, whichever is the less. This would mean that over forty local authorities could run lotteries with the maximum £6 million turnover: several hundred more could run smaller lotteries

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Put another way—and this is the way my noble friend Lord Wigg put it—the Bill would allow local authority lotteries with an annual turnover of £1,000 million, representing an annual sale of 2,000 million tickets at 50p each, or 10,000 million tickets at 10p each. Obviously the "limit" in the Bill is illusory and could lead to unchecked competition among local authorities.
A more difficult problem is the market for such lotteries. Under the existing law, most legal lotteries are run to support charitable, cultural and sporting interests. The proceeds from these lotteries are, in many cases, vital for the continuance of the bodies concerned. For example, I understand—and my noble friend has already referred to this point—that the Spastics Society receives a large part of its income from a charity football pool. But the pool of money in gambling is not bottomless. The money for local authority lotteries will have to come from somewhere and our very real worry is that it would come from the existing charitable and sporting lotteries.
It was this concern which led the Government to try to amend the Bill, in its earlier stages, so that the maximum turnover would be limited to £500,000. This, we felt, was a generous limit which would have allowed local authorities to collect worth while revenue for their purposes, while at the same time preventing both excessive competition between the authorities themselves and the offers of extremely valuable prizes which would have drawn money away from the existing lotteries. Even with this amendment, the Government's view would be that this Bill was a premature step. But with the scope of these lotteries virtually unlimited, we can only feel that the Bill could, potentially, distort the whole of the lottery law and make it difficult to achieve a coherent law in this field.
The noble Viscount, when moving the second Reading, alluded to correspondence he had had with the Greater London Council. He gave an indication of their views. The House should be made aware of this fact: the local authorities are by no means united behind this measure. I have read a letter which we have just received from the Association of County Councils. A section of the statement which they made reads as follows:
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"At a time when the Government themselves, following pressure from the local authority associations, have set up an inquiry into the whole field of local authority finance, it does not seem appropriate that Parliamentary time should be devoted to a Bill whose effect on local authority sources of income will be minimal."
It is interesting whether their judgment on that matter is right. But what is clear is their general lack of enthusiasm for this measure.
My noble friend Lord Wigg made a reference to the communications he had received. I am bound to say to the noble Viscount that the one person who must be extremely grateful to him for his activities is the Chairman of the Post Office Corporation, because he has nearly managed to put the telegram service into surplus—a remarkable achievement. The Government have received a number of messages not altogether indicating total support for the noble Viscount's measure. They come from the Rugby Union, the Amateur Rowing Association, the Secretary of the Cricket Council—and I supose in these rather sensitive times I should declare my membership of the Kent County Cricket Club—the Rugby Football League and a number of other organisations, including the same shooting organisation which communicated with the noble Viscount.
This indicates the difficulty of approaching this type of legislation on this piecemeal basis. I do not think that it is possible to deal with a small sector of the gambling laws in this way. We have come forward with a strong, all-embracing piece of legislation dealing with these problems. As a result of that I hope, depite the procedural difficulties to which my noble friend Lord Wigg referred, that the noble Viscount will decide not to proceed with this Bill.
5.43 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, I rise to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill as I expect your Lordships will anticipate, although I hope in not too puritanical or solemn a spirit. Bishops, however, innocent they may look, are not so ignorant of the facts of life that they do not realise that gambling and betting in various forms are part of the way of life for large numbers—perhaps the majority—of our fellow countrymen. I certainly do not either expect or hope to stop it or reduce it very

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much by any measures in Parliament or elsewhere. I was amused at the references of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, to church bazaars. He made a little slip, as amateurs do when they touch on ecclesiastical matters. He should not have taken the question of the cake; he should have said "guessing the name of the doll". Then he would have had a perfectly clear case of a lottery. But even here one has to be careful.
I will not delay the House for more than a moment with this stupid incident, but, just to show that this is not the first time I have thought about these matters, I once had to speak on this subject in Cambridge. I was rash enough to say there were certain forms of gambling that I considered pretty harmless, and I mentioned one or two of the examples which the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, has mentioned. By an extraordinary coincidence, my words were taken over in a reported form to one of the islands in the West Indies where there was an enormous row going on as to whether or not a casino should be built. The local Anglican padre was leading the case against the casino. Unfortunately for him, my words were sent to the West Indies by a Cambridge undergraduate and published in the local paper there. I had a heartbroken letter from him saying that, in a few sentences, I had undone all the good work he had been trying to do for many months. Even in these little matters one has to watch one's step.
In spite of accepting a great deal of gambling, I will admit that I do not want Parliament to do very much to encourage the gambling mentality in our country. We have enough of it, and I do not want to give any obvious push to it to increase it in such a marked way as would happen if we passed this Bill. I must also say that, so far as I understand the implications of the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, it would be infinitely preferable for us to reject the Bill, because unless I read the Amendment wrongly we shall be passing it but only at a date in six months time from now, which I suppose means we can only then amend it in Committee; the actual principle would have been passed. He does not ask that it should be re-opened in six months' time, but that in six months' time it should pass I hope that
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I am not misunderstanding him on this point.
That is why I am taking the plain line of asking the House to reject the Bill. In doing so I must say that I am leaning heavily on the views of the Churches Council on Gambling, of which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London is president, and the noble Lord, Lord Soper, is a distinguished member, and both of them have asked me to associate them with the views which I am expressing this afternoon. The Churches Council on Gambling is by no means a puritanical association; it is very realistic, very down to earth, very well-informed and on excellent terms with the bookmakers contrary to what many people think.
They and many other similar bodies have asked a lot of questions about this Bill and I want to list briefly the reasons which they and others feel are relevant to this question. The first one is the fact that, in spite of what the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, feels, there has not been much time for adequate discussion. The report which we have in our hands was dated only December, 1973. Since then there have been a few distractions in the country if one looks back to the times of the General Election, strikes and other upsets. However, many bodies have been formulating their answers and I have read a number of them; most of them are critical. They are by no means all trivial organisations. I think that the noble Viscount who moved the Second Reading picked out a number of organisations which he felt fairly confidently would create a smile-lacrosse associations and things of that kind.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I did not. I merely quoted all those which had written to me.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, then I can remind the noble Viscount that I picked out from the communications which I had in my hands Manchester United and the Warwickshire Cricket Club, which I thought might stand up a little better to the lacrosse team if it came to some kind of competition. It is perfectly true that these bodies are expecting a much longer discussion of this matter than would be possible if we gave this Bill a Second

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Reading to-day. They will feel that there has not been adequate time for discussion.
Secondly, what we are offered in this Bill is in no real sense a proper continuation of the work which has been done by the inter-departmental Working Party. I suppose in one sense that there is no particular reason why it should be so. But do not let anybody be under the illusion that it is so, because we were offered in the inter-departmental Working Party's Report what I might describe as a "package deal". We were offered a number of proposals which all hung together. One was the limitation of the pools prizes to be offered. Another was the licensing of lotteries by the Gaming Board, and I am sure that your Lordships will have noticed that the Gaming Board comes into this Bill in an altogether different way from the way in which it came in under the proposals of the interdepartmental Working Party. In their Report, lotteries were to be licensed by the Gaming Board before they ever took place, but the Gaming Board is reduced here to a kind of auditing function.
When it is all over and done with, but after a reasonable time, the body concerned must send in a report; and the Gaming Board will just skim through it to see whether any offences have been committed. And that it all that the Gaming Board can do. There is no real sense that the Gaming Board will control the whole thing in the way which was suggested in the inter-departmental Report. There is also a tremendous difference, in that the Report proposed large lotteries for major charitable or sporting purposes in the country, and suggested that local authorities should engage upon lotteries only if they were concerned with an institution of such a quality that it might be felt to have a national status. There is absolutely no comparison between the kind of lotteries that were envisaged in the inter-departmental Report, and those which are now suggested on an enormous scale in the present Bill.
My Lords, that brings me to the question of how many of these lotteries there will be. That is anybody's guess. I heard somebody say the other day that he was particularly reluctant to prophesy, especially in regard to the future, and I think that that is a very wise attitude
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to take. However, what we can discuss and must discuss is what is actually offered in the Bill. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, for being able to compute the number of authorities that could, if they wanted to, run these lotteries. I began to try to work it out but it was beyond my mathematical powers.
The noble Lord has produced an answer and I have no doubt that it is the right one. However, it is a fact that even' single authority, from the Greater London Council down to the smallest parish council, is authorised to run a lottery.
Here I will make a little guess. I have a feeling that this is the kind of thing which local authorities would want to do when they saw other people doing it. I may be wrong, but undoubtedly this is the way in which many people's minds work. One has only to have a good television report of a "sit in" in one university, and one will very soon see a "sit in" taking place in another. That is just the way in which it goes. If Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham have successful lotteries, I believe that there will be a feeling on the part of other authorities that they must not be left behind in the race. I believe also that it will grow into something very considerable.
It has been my experience that much legislation of what one might broadly call a permissive kind produces a good deal more in the way of positive results than its promoters expect and anticipate for it. To mention three which I put down when I was preparing this speech, the Divorce Reform Act, the Abortion Act and, I regret to say, the Sexual Offences Act have in all cases produced very much larger effects in the empirical world than were anticipated at the time. I think, therefore, that the idea that these lotteries will be a comparatively small and unimportant thing in the life of the country is almost certainly illusory.
It has been mentioned, and rightly, that in order to run lotteries using the full ceiling of £6 million a year, it will be necessary to sell 2 million tickets at 25p each in every month of the year. Therefore, I ask myself where the staff will come from to run them. Do we really want all of our local government people to be largely involved in this kind of thing? Have they not got enough to do without giving their minds to this?

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And if they are not going to do it, who is? I cannot see things of this scale being done on a purely voluntary basis. I think that it will make an enormous demand on the staff of our town halls of a rather undignified and, I think, generally unprofitable type.
The effect on other charities and sports has been mentioned, so I need not enlarge upon that. I am bound to say that I do not feel absolutely certain that money for these lotteries will, in fact, come from the money which people would otherwise spend; I think that that is anybody's guess. However, what we do know is that if they are effective they will draw in an enormous amount of money, and the spending of that money will not be related very closely to effort or sacrifice of any kind. There will be an attempt to cash in on the natural sporting instincts of men and women. I do not underrate those; I do not even despise them. I think that one of the great secrets of gambling and why it has such a hold is that it gives a lot of ordinary people a stake in the future which they might not otherwise have. That is something which all moralists and social philosophers will have to think about.
I do not think it would be a step forward for this country to become largely dependent on this gambling and acquisitive instinct for its amenities up and down the country. I received an advertisement the other day for some kind of hire-purchase system. I did not study it very carefully, but it had as its large slogan on the brochure, "Why wait till tomorrow for something that you want to-day?" I think there is every reason to wait if you do not have the money and have not earned it. I think that if the people of our country want certain services and certain amenities, it is far better that they should pay for them in the proper way through the rates or through taxes, than through the rates or certain instinct of gambling.
6.2 p.m.
LORD LUKE: My Lords, I rather fear that I cannot follow my noble friend Viscount Colville of Culross in what he said, although he did help me right at the beginning of his remarks by saying that this was an optional method of relieving the rates and that specific projects and amenities came in by a sort of side wind. I suspected that it was for the
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relief of rates and not for helping amenities. He discounted that there would be a transference of local support to lotteries, but there I have to disagree with him. He also said that this matter was not discussed in another place. I do not see really what that has to do with the matter.
However, I find myself on the side of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg; I support his Amendment, which in effect would reject the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Wigg, has really made most of my speech for me. Probably that is the first time he has done that. I do not know whether it will be the last time or not. I was very glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, say that he was reluctant to see legislation hurried through; that the Bill was not acceptable to the Government, and that local authorities were not united behind the measure. So I am very grateful all round.
As the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, says, we all seem to have woken up—well, so much the better! If I have woken up at the same time as Lord Wigg, I am delighted. I am in very good company. This method of raising money may have very unfortunate consequences for other existing methods in the voluntary field of money raising, and might lead to a too centralised form of distribution. Any local authority, in-including parish councils, would be able to syphon off voluntary contributions which would otherwise go direct to the causes concerned, and there is no guarantee what those causes would receive from the central fund. That would be at the discretion of the local authority. There are many charitable causes which might suffer from this arrangement while others might benefit, perhaps out of all proportion to the others.
The lotteries would be limited to one per month, 12 in a year; but there are many more than 12 charities, local and national, which are benefiting from contributions large and small all over the country—sports clubs, recreation centres and so on. The method suggested would channel money into a selected few. The decison on distribution of funds would be taken out of the hands of individuals and decided by local authority committees. The attractions of a lottery are very great as seen by the present system of raffles

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and lotteries now operating in most localities, but the prizes are much larger and local lotteries might well drain away too much money from direct giving.
If we are to see county councils, district councils, parish councils all having lotteries in proliferation, that is likely to produce a most unfortunate effect on the present, not unsuccessful, methods of local efforts to support local causes by local individuals. Money would instead flow into local authority funds from which distribution might be very different and decisions might be prejudiced. I do not support this Bill and I shall vote against its Second Reading if possible; but I agree to postponement through the proposed Amendment.
6.6 p.m.
LORD HOUGHTON OF SOWERBY: My Lords, the last time I addressed your Lordship's House, earlier this week, the speech I made was attributed in The Times newspaper to my noble friend Lord Pannell, who tells me that he received numerous congratulations on the style and content of his "maiden speech" to your Lordships' House. My noble friend and I have been such old friends and agree upon so many things that no harm is usually done when a speech by him is attributed to me or mine is attributed to him; but it does seem to me, my Lords—and I hope this is not a breach of the conventions of the House—that on rising to speak a noble Lord in these circumstances should identify himself, for the benefit of The Times newspaper if no one else. My name is Houghton of Sowerby and what few remarks I am addressing to your Lordships I hope may be attributed to me.
I listened with enjoyment to the speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, and admired the ease with which he launched this important Bill upon your Lordships' House. I think I would have enjoyed more the speech he would have made had he still been a Minister at the Home Office occupying the place of my noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich, speaking from a similar brief and saying much the same thing as my noble friend, because from what I have heard the noble Viscount had no such revolutionary ideas about lotteries for local authorities when he was a spokesman for the Home Office.
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This is a most important Bill, but I think it would be very undesirable indeed for your Lordships to give a Bill of this importance a Second Reading without a great deal more public discussion upon its content and implications. I have only a brief point to make. I think that it would be a pity to launch another contentious matter upon local government for no good public purpose. We are not in need of additional money for local authorities to the extent that we have to turn to lotteries for it, as against more conventional methods of raising revenue for local purposes.
This would be a most contentious subject in local politics. There are other matters of great controversy in local affairs, but there is usually some significant, if not overriding, public purpose in what it is proposed to do which is not present on this occasion and in this Bill. So I think we should spare local authorities having to deal with this matter. I can conceive of circumstances in which citizens might take very strong moral objection to local authorities raising money in this way.
I come from a family of passive resisters. In the early part of the century, my father went to prison rather than pay the education rate which, under the Act of 1903, was to be devoted in part to the maintenance of Church schools. That was a very strong movement indeed among Methodists when I was a young boy. One can, I think, conceive of a passive resistence movement springing up among those who feel strong moral objection to raising money for public purposes by public authorities in this way. Certainly I think it should not be undertaken without a great deal more public discussion than this matter has had so far.
That is really the only point I wish to make because the other points have already been made. Our gambling and lottery laws are in a mess and they need to be sorted out, and I hold a personal judgment that there is a great deal too much gambling going on in this country at the present time. I think we should exercise great care before widening the scope for raising money by means of lotteries and other forms of gambling. This is an oppportunity for your Lordships' House to take a strong stand, if not on moral grounds then on grounds

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of expediency and good government for local authorities.
6.10 p.m.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I do not want to make a speech, but I should like to ask a question, having listened to this debate. I do not know whether I shall receive an answer now because I have not had a chance to give advance notice of the question, which is to do with taxation. I think the noble Viscount made it quite clear in his speech that the Treasury will get its "rake-off" in taxation from these lotteries. Suppose a local authority wants to raise £100,000 for a swimming pool by means of a lottery. The tax bill will not be the amount which will leave £100,000 after tax has been paid. If I heard the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, aright, only some 40 per cent. of the total pool of a lottery constitutes the proceeds; one has to have another, perhaps, 40 per cent. to distribute as prize money and the remaining 20 per cent. has to cover such things as advertising, running expenses, and so on.
The result of this surely is that one would only get £40 proceeds after tax had been paid on £100, and my question—to which I should like to have the answer some time—is this: what is the total tax bill expressed as a percentage of the 40 per cent. proceeds? My suspicion is that the tax bill is an extraordinarily high proportion of the proceeds and that this adds up to the most extraordinarily expensive way of raising money to build a swimming pool.
6.12 p.m.
VISCOUNT MONCK: My Lords, in rising to support the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, I should like to support also everything that all noble Lords have said about the effect that these lotteries could have on those organisations which now depend very much on them for their income: charitable organisations, voluntary organisations, sporting organisations and all the rest of them. I have a certain amount of experience because for the last five years I have run a lottery for our church—which might interest the right reverend Prelate! The tickets cost 5p, the first prize is £100 and there are four other prizes graded downwards, and the draw is open until November 11. I thought your Lordships might be interested.
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The point I am coming to is that the Bill—as well as the probability of these local lotteries taking away from the pool which at the present moment these other organisations can tap—has a very unfair clause in it; namely Clause 2(2)(a), which says:
"It shall be the duty of a local authority to give such publicity to the purposes for which they are promoting a local lottery as will be likely to bring them to the attention of persons purchasing tickets".
Under my lottery I am not allowed to advertise. I have now done so, I suppose, in your Lordships' House; but we know that this is a House of privilege and I have my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross to defend me if I am "run in" so I hope I shall get away with it. This is one other point which I do not think has so far been mentioned to-day and I strongly support the Amendment.
6.14 p.m.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, the noble Viscount said—and he complained that he had a grievance—that sporting bodies had not made known their objections to the Bill until the very last moment. For over 50 years I have been connected, either at club, regional or national level, with various sporting organisations. Sporting organisations are concerned with their game, with promoting the interests of their game for their players, and they are not really concerned with what is happening either in this House or in another place. It really takes time for clubs and sporting organisations to understand or to appreciate that some legislation is going through Parliament which vitally affects them. This is exactly what has happened now. It takes not days or weeks but months—and even perhaps a year or two—for this understanding of what is happening to take place. That is why I support so strongly what has already been said, that we should delay the Bill or, if you like, vote against it.
However, I most strongly support the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, and I suggest that this Bill needs very much greater consideration than it has been possible to give it. I believe that all around the country there should be greater opportunities for people to know much more of what is contained in the Bill than up to now it has been possible for them to know.

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Last night, I was presiding at the annual general meeting of the Harlequin Rugby Football Club, followed by a committee meeting. One of our main concerns is how are we, as an amateur club, to keep going in these days of inflation and rising costs. This is the concern of a great many amateur clubs, whether the sport is cricket, soccer, rugger, athletics, sub-aqua, water-skiing or anything you like, and one of the ways they go about it is by means of lotteries. It is due to the devoted work of many honorary secretaries and officers of clubs who get "stuck into it" in every way they can, and one of the way of raising money to keep these voluntary organisations going is by lotteries.
Believe me, my Lords, this will be a kind of knockout blow; it will be something that is just hitting them altogether too hard. They have raised this money and they are now going to be faced with local authorities right down to the parish council hitting them and competing with them. I do not want to delay your Lordships any longer, but I most urgently suggest that it is only right and proper that a much deeper and further consideration should be given to the Bill, and I oppose the Bill.
6.19 p.m.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I feel that I should be false to my own conscience if I did not intervene in this debate. As the vice-president of the National Association of Local Councils—the old parish councils—I was originally asked if I would introduce the Bill into your Lordships' House during the period of the last Government, but there was not time to do so. As vice-president of the Keep Fit Association—and I do not feel a very good exponent of that at the moment—I was asked to oppose the Bill. So I have to approach it to-day with an open mind.
I have listened carefully to the debate. Unfortunately I missed the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, but knowing most Governmental speeches it was probably very neutral and would not have influenced me. But I did hear the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, who I still say does not know the difference between testing the weight of a cake and taking part in a lottery, and as a great expert in this sphere for many years, I can assure him that there is a great difference.
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But seriously, I am general secretary of a charity that depends on the raising of money. I am also a member of a church which raises a great deal of money from lotteries, and a member of a political Party (and many of your Lordships are members of that Party) which would be in very sad straits if it did not get money from lotteries. So we must have no moral objections to this unless we examine very carefully where the money comes from that we use. We must discard that angle.
My Lords, we then look at another angle which is more prevalent—that here is a rival to the charities. This is a much more practical approach, one about which the noble Lord has just spoken. If we have this vast monster, it will take money from the little local charities. I would say to your Lordships that very few have spoken about the vast commercial concerns who take the big money in the lotteries. Even now, it is not the charities who draw the vast money, but the commercial concerns. Why should there not be a transferance from that group to the local authorities?
I rest my support for the Bill on the words of the noble Viscount. This is a very important factor in this discussion. The noble Viscount said it would be optional for the local authority. There is no reason to suppose that every local authority would wish to engage in this, despite what has been said. It would be optional for the citizen to purchase a ticket, so if the citizen did not like the idea, if he were part of a church or a group that was against it, then there is no compulsion to purchase. If people prefer a charity, it would still be there. It would be only fair to emphasise that this is a totally permissive measure; there is nothing mandatory at all about it. I believe many local authorities of the smaller kind, the parish councils, would engage in this with every kind of dignity, and would be able to help their own case where they found it difficult to raise money.
My Lords, we are a gambling community. Personally, I am not a gambler. I cannot even bear to part with my cards when I play bridge. I know I am no gambler. I long ago decided that anything I got in life was going to come to me because I worked for it. But there is no doubt that most people enjoy the excitement of waiting to find out if they

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have won something. My own organisation of women finds it impossible to have even a meeting on a serious subject without there being a raffle; it is part of the ritual, and they thoroughly enjoy it. We are dealing with something already with us. People enjoy gambling.
For the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, I also once worked for a commission agent, and he missed out of his list the accumulator, the "up-and-a-downer" and "anything to come". There is a number of facets to this sort of thing. There can be very little real harm in introducing what is a permissive measure. I feel there is no great danger that we shall all be immersed in 6,000 local authorities filling our hoardings, asking us to buy lottery tickets. I support the noble Viscount, because I have a strong suspicion that if I do not, he may find he has no other supporter this evening.
LORD MAELOR: My Lords, in intervening I am going to deliver the shortest speech I have ever delivered. The last sentence of the Bill is this:
"This Act shall not apply to Scotland or to Northern Ireland."
I ask the question: why was not Wales excluded?
6.25 p.m.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, I will not weary the House by exploiting my right of reply but one or two points must be made. First, may I deal with the point of taxation. The Promoters originally put into the Bill when it was first printed a provision to exempt it from the pool betting duty. But they changed their minds, and subsequently the right honourable Mr. Graham Page, who produced the Bill, accepted that the betting duty of 40 per cent. was correct. So there will in fact now be three rates of betting duty, three different categories, one for the commercial pool promoters, another for the pool which deals with the sporting activities, and then there will be this third one. It will take 40 per cent. out of the pool.
Of course, the other deduction which I think is grossly underestimated is the expenses. To sell 2 million tickets at 25p a time is going to be difficult. But as has already been said, this may become a habit if it were successful. Then one would find in one area a county council running a lottery, a parish council running
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a lottery, neighbouring authorities run ning a lottery. It would lead to chaos. I do not wish to weary the House—
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt the noble Lord, but I think I am being done out of a chance to answer. The noble Lord, indeed, has the right to make a speech on the Amendment, but I think I might be entitled to be heard in opposition to it. I have not made a speech on this particular Motion, and I was proposing to say a word or two. I think if the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, goes on with his speech, I am pre-empted. Of course, I am in the hands of the House. If they do not want to hear me I shall not be surprised. But that is the situation.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, I am a child in these matters of procedure. As I understand it, the Motion before the House is my Amendment. That is now being considered and as I understand it from the learned Clerk I have the right of reply on the Amendment.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I have not made a speech on it yet.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, we are discussing the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, on which my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross has not yet spoken. I think it is right that he should speak on the Amendment, and then the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, has the right to wind-up.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, I thought I would exercise my right of reply to the Amendment. If I win, then the right of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, to reply will not arise, because there will be no substantive Motion.
6.28 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I thought that was what was happening! If I could intervene, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, for answering the point about taxation, if indeed he has done so, because I do not know what the answer is myself, although I could find out.
The other thing that has happened to me this afternoon is that I have at last been converted to the practice whereby people come in and do not put their names down to speak, but in fact decide to do so at the last moment, because I

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am really looking wherever I may find it for small mercies this afternoon. A rather large one has come my way in the form of the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips. I am grateful to her, because otherwise I feel the House would not be entirely with me on this matter.
My Lords, I do not want to say a great deal, but I think we ought just to consider what we are doing. First, I am probably right in suggesting that most of your Lordships would like, if they could, to find a method of supplementing local revenues. We have had the general rating system since 1601. Nobody has yet found any method of supplementing or substituting something else for it. I would suggest to your Lordships that the proposition that is put forward in this Bill is worthy of at least this consideration: that it is certainly in my case an honest attempt to do something about a situation that is going to hit a lot of people very hard who would like to have amenities or cultural activities, or something of that sort, within their own locality for which there simply will not be any money.
That is the point of this Bill. It is not to encourage gambling; it is not to produce a proliferation of lotteries. It is to try to get hold of some more money for local government, particularly at a time when, as has been recognised by a number of noble Lords, it is going to be very short indeed. That is what we are talking about. If noble Lords wish to be critical of the way in which I do it, that is one thing. But at least let all of us be aware that if we turn this Bill down we are missing an opportunity—and there will not be another one, because we are not going to get any other measure which deals with this matter in the foreseeable future—whereby we can immediately provide some method of supplementing the local rates. That is the main point of this Bill.
I would say one thing to the right reverend Prelate. There was at one stage in his speech, I thought, a suggestion that the Bill would encourage more gambling. If that is so, that is an argument which cannot exist with the pleas which have come from others in this House—from my noble friends Lord Luke and Lord Wakefield, for instance—that the result of this Bill will be to take
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money away from other existing lotteries. You cannot have it both ways: either it is going to increase gambling, in which case the right reverend Prelate is unhappy but my noble friends will not be upset; or it will come from the same pool, in which case the right reverend Prelate is happy but my noble friends will find themselves out of pocket.
The difficulty about the arguments—and the right reverend Prelate said this—is that both of them are anyone's guess. We have no argument on which to go. It is very easy forcefully to assert that the money will come from the sporting lotteries, the charitable lotteries such as the spastics, or the long list that the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, read out—people of that sort. I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, knows that that is so. He does not claim to know that that is so. Nobody knows that that is so. They fear, they guess, and if they are involved in these activities themselves it is right that they should be a little worried. Nobody can prove that that is where the money will come from.
The noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, suggested that there are other, richer sources, which may also make their contribution. Perhaps it is to be the greater contribution. Certainly, there is no information that I know of—and there was no information available to the inter-departmental Working Party, and they, after all, had plenty of time to consider the matter—which suggests to anyone where the money for a small lottery would come from. If they do not know, and they had all the time in the world and all the expertise to study it, then I do not think, with the greatest respect, that anybody in this House knows either.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, I read the Report as saying that they could find the money for these extra lotteries only if the prizes for the pools were reduced. I may have misunderstood it, but I think that was their answer.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, the right reverend Prelate is right—it was. That indicates that, at any rate, there is something to be said for the noble Baroness's point of view, that the sufferers may not be the small charities, the small lotteries of football and other sporting associations, but the

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larger, commercial organisations. I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for reminding us of that fact.
What we then have is this situation. We are faced with these fears which I entirely understand. We do not know whether or not they are well-founded. Nobody is prepared to try to see. Everybody says we should have a lot more discussion. Nobody so far has wished to discuss it except in this House when, as far as I remember, there was no great outcry of the nature that has come forward to-day. A number of your Lordships, like the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, and my noble friend Lord Luke, joined with the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, in saying it was a great mistake to have piecemeal legislation. Very well, when will the Government legislate? The noble Lord will not be able to tell me, because he does not know. Anyway, he does not have a Bill, and if he did have a Bill he has no Government policy upon its priority. He cannot tell me, and I know this perfectly well.
It is no use merely saying that you must not have piecemeal legislation; you must wait for a wholesale review of this subject by Government legislation. I thould think it is well down the list of priorities in the Home Office. Apart from anything else, it is extremely difficult. I do not believe that the Government are likely to come forward with it first. For the sake of long inaction we are asked to throw out a modest measure. We are asked to throw it out on a Division. There were no Divisions as to the principle of this matter in another place. It has gone through that House in every stage. I am certainly not going to withdraw it because, first of all, I do not think I can; and, secondly, I think it would be the greatest disservice and most unsympathetic to my right honourable friend the Member for Crosby if I did so.
Your Lordships are always making new rules, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, reminded us. However, there have not been many occasions when Private Members' Bills which have come from another place have been rejected on Second Reading. May I say this about the Amendment? I understand it is not what is normally meant by a six months' Motion, but in fact it will come to the same thing, because we all know we are to have an
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Election in September or October. It is very unusual to reject a Bill in these circumstances, and I wonder whether your Lordships really wish to do so.
I must leave it to your Lordships as to whether you wish to vote for the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, whether you wish to vote against the Second Reading of the Bill itself, or what you ought to do. I think your Lordships should at least consider the points that I have made, and also consider the precedent you are setting. I hope that, at any rate, we may be prepared, if further discussion is what everybody wants, to allow it to go through and then discuss it. My Lords, what better opportunity are we to have than a measure of this sort upon the Floor of the House at Committee stage—I suppose during the spill-over period? I shall look forward to my noble friends saying exactly why they fear the competition that this Bill will set up, what data they have to suppose that the money will come from one source rather than another. They all ask for discussion; discussion let us have and in detail. If that is the only reason that appeals to your Lordships, I hope it will be sufficient to defeat the noble Lord's Amendment and to give my Bill a Second Reading to-day.
5.1 p.m.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, has moved his ground. The principal point he made when moving the Bill was that various organisations, very late in the day, had come along and only now at the eleventh hour had spelled out their objections. That statement is just not true. I suspect that the noble Viscount has discovered it is not true. I want to make it quite clear that I do not want to take up a Party position on this matter. This subject covers all Parties. The question of sport, the financing of sport and the handling of gambling in this country are not matters which could ever satisfactorily be dealt with from a Party point of view. If any noble Lord doubted me on this point I would regret it.
I must point out that I served on the Horserace Betting Control Board at the request of a Conservative Government. I subsequently voted against my own Parly many times on the legislation, be-because I could not say one thing in private and do another in public. I was

1975
appointed a member of the Totalisator Board by the then Home Secretary, Mr. Butler, and subsequently reappointed by Mr. Brooke. The whole time I was there I tried to handle this problem as objectively as I could. Having said that, may I point out to the House that the Group of Sports Clubs—to give them their right title—were asked by the Home Office, as were many organisations up and down the country, to deal with the problem which the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, bequeathed them. I repeat that I am making no Party point. The inter-departmental Working Party's report was left to my noble friends in the Government to deal with. They asked for opinions.
To say that a group of men, of which the group of self-supporting pools is one, are squealing, to say that they came forward only at the eleventh hour, is a rank injustice. They printed the report in May. They printed it before the Page Bill reappeared. Indeed, in their report—and I will willingly supply the noble Viscount with a copy—they published an addendum which reads—
"Since this booklet was prepared Mr. Graham Page has introduced a Bill to permit local authorities to operate lotteries. We presume that Parliament will feel that such a measure should await the outcome of the review of the whole of the lottery laws."
That is their position; that is the position of the Gaming Board and of sporting organisations up and down the country. They say that this problem would not be dealt with piecemeal.
The noble Viscount made another point. He said that one Party says that this will increase gambling while the other Party says that it will take gambling away from us. That is a contradiction. It can do both. He then suggests that those of us who have tried to do our homework on this over a very long period do not know what we are talking about. I claim that my reputation for accuracy in this field will stand up against that of Mr. Graham Page. I informed the House that in his article in the Daily Express he said it would affect 378 authorities, whereas in fact it will affect 8,737. I cannot do better than that, or worse than that.
There is another factor—and here again it seems to me that the noble
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Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, is an innocent. In this game what you will get depends upon the effort and the resources you use. The commercial pools advertise like mad, but they also now use personal collections. Imagine the position of the G.L.C. in seeking to sell 2 million tickets a month in competition with the pools, without advertising. They propose to spend only £43,000 out of each pool. At the same time the London boroughs are doing precisely the same thing. That is why I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, that if she thinks that there is any "gold in them there hills", she has another shock coming. From a gambling point of view, this is a piece of unutterable nonsense. But that does not alter the fact that it confuses an already very confused picture. At the same time it will break not only sporting clubs but the Spastics and the Cancer Research, all of which are depending on the resources from lotteries which successive Governments, because they have neglected the problem, have encouraged them to build up.
One must assume the good faith of any Government; one assumes the good faith of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross. The Government have gone to authorities up and down the country, saying, "Please let us have your comments". They came in only in May. One has therefore got to assume that whatever Government are in power after the next Election, they will have to tackle this problem. If they do not do so then Nemesis is over their shoulder because there will be another Ibrox. The last Government introduced the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wheatley, on the moral of Ibrox to supply them with an alibi. Here was a problem that had been known for years; they had done nothing about it, and some sixty people lost their lives. So what do we do? In order to quieten criticism we have an inquiry. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wheatley, took on the job and the first thing he is told is that there is no Government money available. The Labour Party say that there ought to be Government money available. The Labour Party are now the Government; so they, like the Conservative Government, say, "No money". They say they are all going to depend on lotteries.

1977
If we are not to spend all of our money on lotteries there must be a limit. We are asking that they accept the efforts of those who put effort into it—somewhat misguidedly I think—and say, "Please, there is enough in this. When the new Government come in let us have a Select Committee on an all-Party basis and let us look at our gambling laws as a whole—pools, lotteries, the lot. Let us rationalise legislation which has served the country well but which is now out of date through nobody's fault." Therefore I would ask noble Lords to support me in the Lobby. By delaying this Bill they will be fulfilling the historic function of this House, which all those who support a second Chamber have always claimed to be one of its powers—to act as a brake, as a delaying operation, so that we can have second thoughts and at least take a decision when we have found out the facts.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, before we divide we ought to be perfectly clear what the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, entails. Although he says that it is a delaying Motion, under our Standing Orders it is in effect the rejection of the Bill. If I may draw the noble Lord's attention to the relevant position, it says that the carrying of an Amendment to leave out the word "now" and add at the end of the Motion "this day three or six months", which purports to the Bill receiving a Second Reading during the current Session, is treated as the rejection
of the Bill. It goes on to give the Motions that are put and says that if the Amendment is carried the Bill is rejected. I know that the noble Lord says that we are masters of our own procedure; but this is the current procedure, and I do not think that his Motion could mean other than the rejection of the Bill.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I have read that, but of course I live by precedent. I can do no other than read other men's words, and abide by them. But that great authority, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, looking at me the other night, said "Precedents do not operate here. We make our own rules. We live by common sense". I repeat, if this is good enough for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, it is good enough for me. I am not concerned with what is in the book. I am concerned with the use of my words. I mean what I say, and I say what I mean. I am asking the House, in the light of the fact that there is going to be a General Election, to delay their decision and to support me in the Lobby on my Amendment that this Bill be read in six months' time.
6.48 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 49; Not-Contents, 27.

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Granville of Eye, L.

Platt, L.

Arwyn, L.

Halsbury, E.

Rhodes, L.

Berkeley, B.

Hanworth, V.

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Bernstein, L.

Henderson, L.

St.Davids, V.

Blyton, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L. [Teller.]

Shinwell, L.

Boolhby, L.

Slater, L.

Boyle of Handsworth, L.

Inglewood, L.

Somers, L.

Clitheroe, L.

Lee of Asheridge, B.

Stamp. L.

Clwyd, L.

Leicester, Bp.

Stow Hill, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Longford, E.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Darling of Hillsborough, L.

Luke. L.

Vernon, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Drogheda, E.

Monck, V.

Wigg, L. [Teller]

Feather, L.

Oakshott, L.

Willis, L.

Ferrers, E.

Onslow, E.

Wolverton, L.

Foot, L.

Pannell, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Gowrie, E.

NOT-CONTENTS

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Colville of Culross, V. [Teller]

Cowley, E.

Bourne, L.

Cranbrook, E.

Cathcart, E.

Colwyn, L.

Croft, L.

de Clifford, L.

Janner, L.

Phillips, B. [Teller]

Drumalbyn, L.

Killearn, L.

Popplewell, L.

Emmet of Amberley, B.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Macleod of Borve, B.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Grenfell, L.

Merrivale, L.

Selsdon, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Windlesham, L.

Napier and Ettrick, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed accordingly.

LLANGOLLEN INTERNATIONAL FESTIVAL
6.56 p.m.
LORD MAELOR LORD MAELOR rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will, through the Welsh Office, financially assist the Llangollen International Festival in view of its importance to Wales and to the over 30 foreign nations who participate annually in this unique Festival. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am sure there is no need for me to explain to your Lordships what is meant by the Llangollen International Festival. Nor would it be possible for me to describe it; it baffles description; it can only be experienced. It has been acclaimed by the news media as a minor miracle. We often use the phrase "out of this world". Those who spend the week at this Festival just feel that they have been out of the world for that period.
My Lords, it behoves me to explain how it originated and how it has been sustained for the last 28 years. The idea was originally conceived towards the end of hostilities in 1945. Members of Allied Governments in this country, notably Free French and Norwegian, visiting the National Eisteddfod of Wales were quick to note the unique character of the occasion, particularly the friendly ease with which Welsh cultural and artistic expression and presentation were blended freely and warmly to the social inter-mingling of every class of person in attendance. It was this general social concern among many thousands of people for cultural, intellectual and even spiritual matters, which prompted one of the foreign visitors to remark that he saw great potential for future reconciliation and improved understanding among the nations if an effort was made to stage a similar event on an international basis.
Mr. Harold Tudor, who had been seconded from the Liverpool Daily Post to the British Council, took up the idea and consulted Mr. W. S. Gwyn-Williams of Llangollen as to its practicability. Mr. Gwyn-Williams, of National Eisteddfod fame, has acted as Music Director of the Llangollen International Festival from its inception. He was the one Welsh musician who had been privileged to adjudicate in choral competitions on the Continent, and was for many years treasurer of the International Folk Music Council, and he gave every encouragement to the idea.
These two gentlemen then sought a host town for such a festival and approached several local authorities in Wales. They failed to find any response. Not despairing, Mr. Gwyn-Williams thought of his own town of Llangollen. This small town is situated in the beautiful Dee Valley, and has a population of only 3,000 people. I want to stress the last point: the population is merely 3,000. To the great joy of these two gentlemen, this small community readily undertook the tremendous responsibility of organising the Festival. Had there been a Welsh Office at this time I am convinced that the Minister in charge would have taken the Festival under his wing, recognising that here was an event which was going to place Wales on the map and bring great praise and credit for the Principality. In no other way could Wales hope to be a shining light in the world.
However, it was started in the summer of 1946 by a local committee, and with the help of publicity abroad by the British Council, the first International Eisteddfod was held on the local recreation ground in June, 1947, two years after the cessation of hostilities in Europe. The event was staged in a marquee holding some 4,000 people. It attracted groups from 14 countries and, over a period of five days, 80,000 people attended. Exactly a decade later its popularity at home and abroad had so grown that the local committee took courage and purchased 26 acres of land for about £6,000. A special marquee

1981
was designed and constructed to accommodate up to 10,000 people, and some of the fields were modified as car parks. Permanent electrical supply was laid on, and a few hundred yards of metalled roadway were constructed, and rudimentary toilets were built, in an attempt to ease the burden of recurring annual expenses.
These remained the only permanent features until 1973, when a wooden pavilion was erected at a cost of some £12,000 to serve the long overdue reception of the travel-weary overseas competitors who now each year come from over 50 different countries, some of them travelling hundreds and even thousands of miles. This year we had a choir from Australia, for instance, and one from Singapore. All other constructions are of canvas, which are erected about two or three days before each festival and dismantled immediately afterwards, when the site reverts to its use as pastureland for sheep. One would have hoped that the passage of 28 years would have enabled the Committee to receive their hundreds of overseas guests with a little more decorum and dignity.
From its inception the Festival has grown from strength to strength in its popular appeal and in its encouragement of true authenticity in folksong and dance, and of the highest standards of choral singing. Growth has meant expansion, and expansion has meant increased cost, but the law of diminishing returns set in during the 1950s. The committee could hardly meet its liability and had to consider allowing the Festival to die out. Fortunately, my brother, Idwal Jones, who was then the M.P. for Wrexham, was successful in introducing a Private Member's Bill in the other place in 1967 empowering all local authorities in Wales to contribute towards the International Eisteddfod out of the rates. This became an Act of Parliament. I sponsored it here in this Chamber. In the meantime, the local authorities have acted generously and creditably. These contributions saved the Festival from possible extinction.
To-day in 1974 two factors in particular cause the committee considerable apprehension. These two factors are inflation and the reshaping of the local authorities in the Principality. The committee's concern is that the shrinking of the number
1982
of authorities will mean a corresponding diminution in the amount of grants received. We have gone down from 13 counties to five, and hundreds of district councils have been done away with in Wales. Profits are now out of the question; the committee can only hope to break even. This causes the committee members great worry when they make their preparations for the following Festival, and it could be averted provided a substantial grant could be made to enable the committee to attend to the physical side of the Eisteddfod. What a blessing it would be, for instance, if a large permanent platform, together with an orchestra pit, could be erected. There are several other such permanent needs which should not incur enormous costs to be covered by income.
In conclusion, I wish to emphasise the fact that all the work done by the members of the committee is on a purely voluntary basis. In the entire organisation only one person receives any remuneration, and she is the honorary secretary's clerk. She is the only person who receives any payment at all for all this mighty work that has been performed annually. What a tribute this is to the committee! Can such service be equalled by any other organisation known to your Lordships?
This year they had additional costs, and they were most unfortunate in what happened. A very severe storm broke over the Dee Valley and the entire marquee, covering 10,000 chairs, was brought down to the ground. This was the situation at six o'clock on the very eve of the Festival. In less than an hour scores of Llangollen schoolboys went under the low canvas to retrieve all the chairs and bring them to the open field, and the tent owners brought their sewing machines to sew the tattered canvas. The B.B.C. very kindly lent their searchlights, and throughout the night work went on laboriously to mend the damaged marquee and to have it re-erected. This work proceeded until late afternoon the following day, but by 7.30 that evening all was well and 10,000 people sat comfortably to enjoy a ballet concert. That gives you the spirit of these people behind the Festival. Over 20,000 attended the Festival each day. Ten thousand of them were perfectly content, as they are each year, simply to mix with foreigners on the grounds. They do

1983
not desire to go into the tent to hear anything, they are quite satisfied to pay their fees to go on the grounds to mix with these foreigners, and to see them performing folk dances in the open.
I regret that a political appointment this evening has compelled the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, to be absent from the Chamber. Apparently he had looked forward to supporting my plea, and in a letter to me Lord Lloyd stales that the International Festival has provided a focal point for an inspiration to a modern Renaissance in the fields of music and art. He has asked me to state that he wholeheartedly supports my appeal. The Festival has been visited, and highly commended, by Royalty, by the present Prime Minister, and by the present Leader of the Opposition in the other place.
It is because of all this that I appeal hopefully to my right honourable friend the Minister for Welsh Affairs to do all he can in order to secure the continuation and development of this wonderful Festival. No one doubts his great zeal for Wales and the Welsh and his desire to uphold the good name of the Principality in all quarters. I earnestly beg of him to offer his assistance in any way he can. I am not connected personally with the local committee, but I am sure he or any of his subordinates would be heartily welcomed by the committee, if a visit to Llangollen could be arranged, to consult the committee as to its greatest needs and the manner in which it could be best assisted or, indeed, to reverse this order and for a delegation to come from Llangollen to London.
7.11 p.m.
VISCOUNT HANWORTH: My Lords, I wish to support the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, from these Benches. This is a quite exceptional Festival. Perhaps I should give a few more details about it. One of the outstanding aspects is that so much is done by the local people. People offer their services free as organisers, hosts, flower arrangers and guides for foreign groups. Anything like this that has achieved the fame it has deserves all the support we can give it.
The Festival has brought renown to Llangollen all over the world because it is one of the few places where competitions are judged by musicologists of
1984
international fame—Hungarian, Dutch, German, Swiss, English, Scottish, Welsh and Greek—who constitute the adjudicators for choir and solo singing, musical instruments, classical set pieces and folk tunes. The dance section comprises two adjudicators, one Belgian or German and one English, with prizes given to the most traditionally correct groups only. Stage arrangements are not given prizes because folk tradition is the standard of performance required.
Llangollen has made its name all over the world for its just standard of adjudication for folk dance and folk instruments competition, both of which give the Western districts of England and Wales groups of performers from many countries, whom people from those parts would not otherwise have an opportunity of seeing and hearing. People come regularly year after year to learn, teachers of music and dance or ethnography and those interested in costumes and customs from other parts of the world. On Wednesdays, the folk dance competition day, nearly a quarter of a million people come to watch and to listen to these groups. It is a centre for cultures of other lands where people of many nationalities can meet, exchange ideas and dances and learn to appreciate each other's countries and ideas, where they can make friends. Many exchanges are agreed or arranged at that time. Of all the things we sponsor and all the things that are really worth while I would have thought that this Festival was one of the outstanding examples.
7.14 p.m.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, I apologise for not having put down my name. I was not sure when my noble friend would arrange this debate, but I am grateful to him for drawing the attention of the House to the Dee Valley and to the National Eisteddfod. The Dee Valley itself, with a population of only 3,000 people, has for some 28 years reverberated to the music, the song, the poetry and the joyous dancing of nations from nearly everywhere in the world. I hope that some attention will be paid to this small debate which we are having to-day, because I agree with the noble Viscount and the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, that this is one of the world's outstanding Festivals. It is on a par with the Edinburgh Festival and with the Hollywood

1985
Bowl. I have sat entranced in Hollywood listening to the music in the Hollywood Bowl. At Llangollen I should like to see something on the same scale as the Hollywood Bowl. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, who is also of Welsh origin, will join us in our plea that nothing in Hollywood—the noble Lord may have seen music festivals there at some time—is any better than the choral Olympic of the National Eisteddfod at Llangollen which distils some of the finest music, poetry and other culture.
When a quarter of a million people are drawn to it, we should take notice. I know that it is a difficult problem for the Government as such but this is where I should like to see the Arts Council come it. The Arts Council deals with this matter as with the Edinburgh Festival. I had a quiet chat with my noble friend on the Front Bench, who is a fellow Welshman, and he may correct me if I have misled the House by that statement. But I hope the Arts Council will pay attention to this. This place brings together men and women in search of that most elusive quality in this modern, brittle, and materialistic age, happiness and the joy of living. We are losing this joy of living. This very discussion we have had tonight about running local authorities by tuppenny-halfpenny lotteries is a measure of the descent of a great nation into the mire of despondency—but things like the Llangollen Festival are joyous. People from all over the world come away elated.
I have been at Embassies here where they have had the audacity to beat the Welsh at their own game of singing. I remember being in the Czech Embassy until four o'clock in the morning. The Russians had the cheek to sing as well. I have even heard an American choir doing quite as well. It does the Welsh good, because they do not get too pompous about their singing and music.
I can remember—I have been speaking only three minutes and if your Lordships can stand the strain for another couple of minutes I will then sit down—my dear old mother and a marvellous clock in West Wales, near Cardigan, and a county school with 29 kids in the top form, 20 of whom went to university. It was a country school where we had boots which were made to measure at five bob a time with soles an inch and a half
1986
thick because we kicked them out kicking the tins. We knew the woods, hills and the names of flowers. How children to-day live in these high-rise fiats God alone knows! We took some enjoyment in the real things of life. These are the things in which Britain can give a lead.
Looking at the arid materialistic side which brings money, if one is thinking in terms of tourism, I remember my mother used to keep Eisteddfod tickets by an old clock. Heaven alone knows how she told the time, because it was the only clock we had in the House, it was battered and stood above the old Welsh mantelpiece by the dresser. It was always turned upside down with two legs cocked in the air. Beside it stood a great dog. These dogs are worth quids these days. We paid about five bob for ours. There it was, with a great hole in its belly, into which she shoved tickets—not lottery tickets, but Eisteddfod tickets.
I sincerely hope that the Arts Council can be approached, and that they will consider that the draconic changes that are now being made in local government have altered completely in Wales the way in which money is donated to the National Eisteddfod. It speaks to all nations of the world through music, song and poetry, irrespective of colour, race or religion. The Welsh are one of the least racially prejudiced nations in the world. They swank a little about their rugby and singing, but they do not mean it in an evil way. They mean it in a joyous way. I hope that the Arts Council will look at this, and, with a little nudging from the Government, will see what it can do to get a permanent structure like the Hollywood Bowl in Llangollen itself. My Lords, I have almost kept my word. I have been just six minutes; that is, one minute above what I said I would be. I apologise to my noble friend on the Front Bench.
7.20 p.m.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, I, too, apologise to your Lordships for speaking without having put my name down. I was not aware of exactly when the debate would be. I certainly support my noble friend Lord Maelor. Like both my noble friend Lord Maelor and my noble friend Lord Davies of Leek—I do not know about the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth—I was born in Wales. I was born at the wrong end of Wales so far

1987
as my noble friend Lord Davies is concerned, because he describes how he had to have an inch-and-a-half put on the bottom of his shoes in order that he could kick things about. I had a toecap put on mine for kicking things about.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: We had that as well, my Lords.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: But, my Lords, it was not the sole that I used for kicking; for stamping yes, but not for kicking. In North Wales we are dealing with a part of the country which is very poor. Do not let us misunderstand this at all. The population is sparse. One has there a country with farms of 100 acres. My grandfather farmed, not at Llangollen but over at Rhewl, which is across the horizon from Llangollen towards the sea. There he farmed, and he had a very small farm of not more than a hundred acres. You do not make a lot of money out of farming 100 acres. The people there have done wonders in supporting this Eisteddfod. They have done marvellously. They have created something which is internationally known, as my noble friend Lord Maelor has rightly pointed out. People come from all over the world to it; and it has been built up by the local people.
Surely, my Lords, it is time we recognised that these people have done so much by themselves for their own community, and that by doing it for their own community they have done it for the whole of Wales and for the whole of Britain. Therefore, it is surely something which the Government could in one way or another, perhaps through the Arts Council, encourage, not by lavish support, but by the minimal support that is required in order to ensure that this great creation should go on and redound to the credit of the people there and of the country as a whole. I hope, my Lords, that the Government will view this favourably.
7.23 p.m.
LORD ARWYN: My Lords, I apologise for having arrived only just in time to take part in this debate, but unfortunately Wales is very poorly represented in your Lordships' House—in comparison with the Scots, shall I say. I think there are only about eight or nine of us who
1988
can speak the old language of the country, and in our case we have to do as much as we can, few as we are. It is very difficult for us to convey the spirit of this Festival. Those of us who have been brought up in Welsh villages know exactly what it means. There is nothing which binds a community together better than competition, and that is the note which I would strike to-night. I think that improved relations between one country and another are very much like the old conditions in the Welsh valleys when I was a boy. We used to fight each other, especially on the rugby fields, but when we came to festivals we all joined together—and that is something which can be promoted.
In the Festival each country is encouraged to display its own cultures. I do not know any other festival in existence which allows that. My Lords, I should like to say that this opportunity to promote better international relations cannot be lost. No Government can afford to ignore it. We are in a precarious state, as we all know, and if we lose this Festival for the lack of financial support it will be a crying shame. As to what has been done, we have achieved much, but the potential for the future is incalculable. We who know this spirit very well from our own experience can vouch for it. If any noble Lord has any doubt about it, I would suggest that next year we send a delegation to Llangollen, because its importance is such that it would merit a visit by a delegation from your Lordships' House.
7.26 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I must apologise, too, for butting in for a very short time, but the temptation to speak in a Welsh debate is irresistible. We owe a great debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, for having initiated this debate; we have not had one for some time. I am also flattered by the confidence that my noble friends have in me, as demonstrated by the fact that they have not turned up in their flocks to ensure that I say the right thing. I have one good friend behind me, but not many others have been here. All I can say is that we have a good many more representatives of the Conservative Party than of the Liberal Party, despite the interest that they are always taking in regional affairs.

1989
My Lords, I have to declare an interest: I have been a patron of the International Musical Festival at Llangollen for a great many years, and I am therefore fully in support of the remarks so eloquently made, if I may say so, by the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, in introducing this Question. I have the most tremendous admiration for the Festival and for the way it has developed, and for the fact that from such a very small beginning it is now host to over 50 countries which come every year to the Festival. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, feels equally deeply about this and has the greatest possible sympathy with the Question. What his answer will be I do not know, but I am sure he will be very sympathetic.
7.28 p.m.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Maelor has rendered a truly important service in raising this matter. In his admirable speech he made clear a two-fold purpose: first, to place on the Record of Parliament an account of what a small town in a small country is doing to pro mote international culture and good relations; second, as I understood him, to elicit an endorsement by Her Majesty's Government of the objectives and activities of this unique Festival. May I say at once that my noble friend has fully succeeded in his purpose. The first Inter national Eisteddfod at Llangollen took place in 1947, in the aftermath of the greatest cataclysm that the world has ex perienced. It was indeed in reaction to the carnage of the Second World War that a number of villagers came together and conceived this magnificent idea of a com petitive festival which would transfer the instincts of competition and contention from the field of battle to the field of culture. The very first meeting of what we call our Eisteddfodau was a tremendous success. It attracted visitors and competitors from all over the world; and, as the noble Lord who is the senior vice- president of this Festival—I see his name in this beautifully produced—
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, is that not alphabetical?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the noble Lord is far too modest about his attainments. We prefer to think that he, in line with the services of his
1990
family to Wales, is not only alphabetically but meritoriously in the van of the promotion of Welsh culture.
As we have heard, over 50 countries very soon began to send delegations, competitors and visitors to this little town, this cultural Oberammergau. It is very difficult to compare this with any other event, conceived as it was by villagers, and sustained by them, both in practice and in the devotion that they showed. I have just been looking at the list of choirs and their countries of origin in the last choral Olympics which this tiny town organised. They came from the United States of America—of course they sent more than one choir, as one would expect—from Austria, Spain, the Netherlands, Portugal, Sweden, Singapore, Hungary; and indeed it was the Hungarian choir which ran away with the prize for singing, of all things, the Welsh national anthem. This was much to our delight because, as on the rugby field, so in the Eisteddfodic field, nothing delights us more than to see somebody doing it even better than we can.
Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Bulgaria, Italy, Finland, Yugoslavia, Canada, all were there; and of course Wales and England. Fifty countries came together to enjoy themselves in healthy competition in music, song, folk dancing and drama. The motto of this unique festival indicates its distinctive characteristics. I shall give it officially in the Welsh language and shall hasten to render it in English afterwards. It is, Byd Gwyn Fydd Byd a gano—"Blessed is the world that sings". My countrymen have always had an implacable belief that one could solve almost every problem by breaking into song, and Giraldus Cambrensis remarked on this almost a thousand years ago and wrote some very good Latin about it.
My Lords, as we have heard, the aim of the Festival is, "To promote international peace and good will through the medium of the fine arts and particularly the arts of music. "Your Lordships may suppose that these terms of reference imply an objective which is altogether over-ambitious, but this little town in the Dee Valley every year accommodates about 10,000 guests, including, as I have said, thousands from all over the world, and it prides itself on giving free hospitality to overseas visitors during their stay in its houses.

1991
The unique quality of this festival, as my noble friends Lord Hanworth and Lord Wynne-Jones emphasised, is that it is a local affair. It belongs to the people of Llangollen and it is an astonishingly successful venture in the furtherance of amity between people of different nations. Of course, it is competitive, and mostly competitive in the arts of music, but it does not restrict itself to vocal music; it ventures into instrumental music and each year it has grown and now it also includes folk music and dancing, children's and youth choirs and adult vocal solo competitions and, I am very glad to say in the presence of my noble friend Lord Feather, brass band music. I am equally a devotee—nothing delights me more than a good brass band from the Valleys or indeed from some other country.
Additionally, of course, many international artistes and orchestras attend to perform at the evening concerts. In short, as we look at the programme of the Eisteddfodd and see how it is organised what we see is a demonstration of the success of amateur enterprise and voluntary work harnessed to the highest ideals and standards. It is in essence a locally inspired Festival depending for its flavour on the good will and improvisation of the local people. It has a Welsh home, but its doors and windows are wide open to the world. It is this sense of combining national pride and consciousness with a much greater, wider sense of obligation in the international sense that commands the respect and affection of people for the International Eisteddfodd of Llangollen. There is nothing myopic, parochial, narrow about this: it welcomes everybody and it does so in its own accents.
Naturally, its problems have grown with success. There is no dispute about the need for more permanent buildings and their cost. It certainly needs permanent buildings because the weather in Wales can sometimes be rather rough. In recent years, there have been annual deficits and this is beginning to worry the committee. Inevitably, costs have been rising, particularly in connection with overseas visitors. I understand that in 1973 the proper entertainment and reception of our overseas friends accounted for 35 per cent. of the total income and this
1992
cannot and must not be avoided because the presence of overseas competitors and the local hospitality given to them is the very essence of the Festival. That is what it is about and, if it spends so much of its income on welcoming people from all over the world upon its premises, it is discharging its proper function. But it is expensive.
My Lords, the sources of finance available to the Festival are various: there are donations listed in the brochure from individuals, industrial organisations, and a few years ago the Lord Mayor of Cardiff launched a very useful special appeal to assist the Festival. Then there are the local authorities: in 1967, the Eisteddfod Act was passed specifically to enable local authorities in all parts of Wales to make supporting contributions. The Act was piloted through the other place by my noble friend's brother, Mr. Idwal Jones, who was then Member for Wrexham and a scholar and Parliamentarian of distinction. In your Lordships' House, you were fortunate to have the leadership of my noble friend. Since the Act was passed, it has proved a financial blessing to this institution. Contributions are being made from that source and it is worth emphasising to our local authorities that they might perhaps, as my noble friend Lord Davies of Leek has suggested, look again and reinforce their existing generosity.
A further important financial source is the Arts Council. It is worth recording the fact that in 1964 the Welsh Arts Council made a grant for the first time of £500 to the Festival. But since that time the grant has steadily increased and in 1974, 10 years later, it stood at the figure of £8,250.
We all accept that the Council of the International Eisteddfod would wish to see a much greater increase. We have to remember, however, a main factor of policy. The funds of the Arts Council are available to be devoted to the improvement of professional standards. This is an international Festival which, by definition and by choice, is a voluntary and amateur one to a very large extent. Nevertheless, I echo what my noble friend Lord Davies of Leek and others have said, that both the local authorities and the Arts Council could look again at the extent and frequency of their contributions. My noble friend Lord Maelor did

1993
not ask that a Government Department should make a direct financial grant. That is not the way we manage these things in this country, and there is a very fine fundamental principle underlying this fact.
We do not wish in this country to tie cultural and artistic ventures directly to Government finance and possibly to Government control. What we do is to make finance available through an autonomous body like the Arts Council, which is entirely free to make its dispositions as it sees best, and is generally accountable only to the Government of the day so that the freedom of cultural choice and effort is maintained. It is to statutory but independent bodies of that sort that institutions of this kind must continue to look for financial assistance. Equally, under the Act of 1967, they can look, as I have said, to the local authorities to continue and perhaps to increase their own donations. More than one of my noble friends have emphasised that they hope that this will be done; that constantly the possibility of increasing donations from these approved sources may be acted upon.
My concluding remarks to my noble friend and to those who have taken part in this extremely useful, very worth while debate are these. While the Welsh Office and my right honourable and learned friend the Secretary of State for Wales cannot under the system of this Government extend direct financial aid to an institution of this kind, for the reasons I have given, nevertheless he asks me to say that his excellent officials will always be ready to advise the committee to the best of their ability on various aspects of the Festival's splendid work. We have seen how officials of the Welsh Office have very effectively advised local organisations as to the best way to go about development, and I am quite sure that if the Council of the Eisteddfod wish to have the kind of meeting which my noble friend suggested, those officials, with the warm approval of my right honourable and learned friend, will accede with alacrity to any such suggestion.
In the meantime, I hope that this debate, and in particular my noble friend's speech and the remarkable support which he has received in this debate
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from all parts of the House, will have the widest publicity and appeal, and that individuals, organisations, local authorities, and bodies like the Arts Council will all see whether they can increase their already substantial donations to this unique and indeed essential Festival. It is one of the major contributions of Wales to better understanding among peoples. We have a long tradition not only of maintaining our national personality, but of contributing to international amity. If you go no further back than the late Lord Davies of Llandinam, Henry Richard, and a number of outstanding Welsh statesmen who, in the international field have contributed to creating better international understanding, the Eisteddfod in Llangollen is devoted to those objectives, and is deserving of the utmost support not only in Wales but even further abroad.
LORD WYNNE-TONES: My Lords, before my noble friend concludes, can he say whether it is possible that the Department of Education and Science, to which he has not specifically made reference, might find that it could regard the International Festival at Llangollen as one to which some contribution could be made?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the settled practice and policy of successive Governments has been, as I have tried to explain, to make available to an autonomous expert body, such as the Arts Council, a fairly substantial amount of money which it in turn disposes of to the best possible cultural and artistic advantage. It is not the practice and policy of a Government Department directly to engage in making available grants-in-aid of this sort. Nevertheless there are, I imagine, ways in which the Department of Education and Science, like the Welsh Office, could, by advice as to future planning and development, assist the council of this Eisteddfod. The position in regard to grants is as I have put it. The position in regard to the very useful expert advice applies, I am sure, both to the Department of Education and to the Welsh Office.
House adjourned at eleven minutes before eight o'clock.