§ LORD CROOKMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the Standards for School Premises Regulations 1972 are being carried out so as to provide effectively suitable accommodation for medical inspection and first-aid et cetera treatment.
§ BARONESS BIRKMy Lords, responsibility for making suitable accommodation available rests with the local education authorities who will be aware of the requirements of the Standard of School Premises Regulations 1972, which are a consolidation of regulations which have been in force for many years; the detailed provision may vary according to resources available and pressure on school space. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science, in his approval of estimates and plans for all new and re-modelled schools, ensures that 1671 provision is made for such accommodation.
§ LORD CROOKMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. May I say that no one on this side of the House, or in fact in the whole House, would expect a fairy wand to be waved to get all this done at once. But is my noble friend aware that there is absolutely no use being made of these Regulations, except in the form of plans for the future to which she referred. There are buildings in which no doctor can possibly do anything, and there are no provisions at all for first-aid. Is it not possible for something to be done in these old buildings?
§ BARONESS BIRKMy Lords, I do not think my noble friend is quite clear about this matter. The Regulations relate to all maintained educational premises, not just to new buildings. I am sure he recognises that many of these premises were built before the present standards were laid down and, as he himself pointed out, the cost of bringing them all up to standard is impossible to meet at the moment. Furthermore, of course, the economic cuts last year naturally slowed down the process. However, I am pleased to be able to inform my noble friend that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has just announced that, in making allocations for basic need resources in 1974–75, he has managed to set aside a small reserve to enable a limited number of primary school improvements or replacement projects to proceed. Naturally, these will incorporate the points raised by my noble friend.
As regards first-aid boxes, which formed the third part of his supplementary, provision of these is, and has been for some time, the Department's clear advice to authorities and schools. It is certainly what is recommended in the Department's safety publications. But if my noble friend has any information of specific cases where these have not been provided, I should be grateful if he would let me know.
§ LORD CROOKMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for her reply. I shall be happy to tell her anything I know, but I should not want to give her too long a list of the large number of places where there is no provision of any kind. Doctors can look at patients among the children 1672 only by expelling people from the room and in many cases, even if a first-aid box is provided, there is no one trained in first-aid. May I ask my noble friend whether she will be prepared to reply to an Un-starred Question when we come back after the General Election?
§ BARONESS BIRKYes, my Lords. If I am sitting here, my noble friend will certainly be sitting on the Benches behind the Front Bench.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, while recognising the poor quality of some of our modern architects, may I ask whether it is possible that some of them may have overlooked this important accommodation?
§ BARONESS BIRKNo, my Lords, it is not possible because this requirement is specifically laid down, and whether the architecture is beautiful or not the provision has to be incorporated.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, will my noble friend keep up the pressure on the Treasury and the powers that be, to maintain for our children the educational and other services? Further, is she aware that the standards of health and the height and weight of our children today are better than ever in British history, because of the National Health Service and the school meals; and that any money spent on medical aid and premises, and meals and health is investment in life, which is of paramount importance?
§ BARONESS BIRKMy Lords, I agree with my noble friend. I am always ready and willing to put pressure on anybody in order to advance social welfare.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, one of the ways of dealing with the problem which has been put forward by all noble Lords is through minor works. Can the noble Baroness confirm that when the cuts to which she referred in her Answer were made last December, minor works were not cut? Secondly, can the noble Baroness tell the House how much of her right honourable friend's recent allocation will now be allocated to minor works?
§ BARONESS BIRKMy Lords, the noble Lord is right about the minor works: I was referring to the cuts which, of course, affected the building of new 1673 schools. I am afraid I cannot tell the noble Lord how much has been allocated, because my right honourable friend has not yet announced it. When he does so, I shall make sure that the House knows.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the substance of the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Crook regarding these old schools is nothing new? Is she aware that over the last 20 years it has been a matter of consideration by successive Governments, although nothing has been done. Why do we not bulldoze them and have new schools built, which give the accommodation asked for in the Question and in the supplementaries from other Members of this House?
§ BARONESS BIRKMy Lords, I am aware of what my noble friend said. This matter has been going on over the years. I think he will agree that it is quite impossible to bulldoze these old schools at the moment, because there would be many children without any schools to go to.
§ LORD AUCKLANDMy Lords, bearing in mind some of the accidents in these schools—not merely to one child but to several—is the noble Baroness satisfied that there is adequate storage accommodation for drugs and other surgical appliances, which are often needed for the treatment of injuries which may be of a serious kind?
§ BARONESS BIRKMy Lords, to the best of my knowledge—and I have made as many inquiries as I could about this matter—I am satisfied that there is provision. As I am sure the noble Lord will agree, it is quite impossible to have special accommodation set aside because of demands of space, particularly in older schools, but to the best of my knowledge, this provision is made. I must repeat that this is the responsibility of the local education authorities and if the noble Lord will let me know of examples I will see that the Department takes them up.