§ LORD ELTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have yet taken a decision upon the recommendations of the Defence Lands Committee 1971–73.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the Report and public comment received about it are now under consideration and the Government will announce their decision shortly.
§ LORD ELTONMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that the already considerable delay in coming to a conclusion inhibits the processes of planning in civil Departments and also the training in military Departments? Would he accept that the efficiency of our Forces, upon which the safety of this Realm depends, ultimately depends on their ability to train efficiently and therefore this delay is diminishing the security of this Realm? May I further ask the noble Lord, since a decision apparently has not been reached, whether the Government will bear in mind when they are considering arrangements at Lulworth and Castlemartin the fact that there is a sort of domino effect, that the closure of Lulworth for training would mean the transfer of training facilities from Lulworth to Castlemartin, and does he agree that that can only be achieved by making room at Castlemartin by withdrawing facilities for the training of the German 1008 troops? Would he further concede that those troops would have to be trained in their own country, in Germany, and following that the Germans would withdraw facilities for the training of our troops who train there? The question is, where will our troops train, except back in Lulworth?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the noble Lord has quite properly made an extended argument in favour of a certain kind of decision in relation to one of these localities. No doubt what he has said will be studied and considered very carefully by those who, in due course, will be coming to a decision. On his first remark about delay, I agree that all delay is bad for planning authorities and indeed for the Services. However, these are very important matters which must not be unduly rushed. I see that the Report was published in July, 1973, which somewhat pre-dates the accession of this Administration to office.
§ LORD ELTONMy Lords, I do not wish to enter into dispute about what has passed. I am urgently concerned about the future. May I ask the Government how short is short? If this decision is delayed beyond the Recess, it will not be reached before the winter training session begins.
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, how short is as short as we can make it.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that the supplementary questions asked of my noble friend in regard to the training of our troops indicate that there must be something seriously wrong in regard to the training of our personnel so far as the Armed Forces are concerned?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, these are important matters. Matters of training, security, amenity, are extremely important matters, the balance between which must be very carefully weighed and, as I said, not unduly rushed. I entirely agree with what the noble Lord said about the need for haste and for facing the future. In fact, I would quote to him a very famous phrase, "let us all face the future".
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, since it was I, as Secretary of State for 1009 Defence, who asked my noble friend Lord Nugent to take on this Committee, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that some of us on this side are rather surprised that he is answering this Question, and not the noble Lord responsible for the Army? There may be a very good reason for this, but it seems to me it would really fall to the noble Lord, Lord Brayley, rather than the Foreign Office, to answer this Question.
May I further ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that on the only really controversial decision which the Government have to make, the decision about the question of Lulworth and of Castlemantin, whichever decision the Government come to I assure him will be wrong? Would it not be possible to decide on the other issues which are not controversial, so that more land might be released and people put out of uncertainty?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords, I think it should be possible. In fact, we take the view that some decisions can go forward without necessarily waiting for a position in which all decisions can be made. As to the reason why I am answering to-day, it is because my noble friend Lord Brayley is unwell, and as the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, knows, it is a convention, a friendly convention, that Questions are answered from this Dispatch Box on behalf of the Government, not on behalf of Departments.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend, without wishing to take advantage of this Question to put a particular case, whether the Minister for Defence would be prepared to receive deputations from the areas concerned, as the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, did when he was Minister for Defence? Secondly, what form will the decisions take? Is legislation necessary? Will it be by Orders, and will Parliament be able to register its decision on what the Government decide?
§ LORD GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, on the second point, I could not to-day anticipate the Parliamentary form, if it were necessary, in relation to each question that arose; they vary a great deal in the kind of procedure that may 1010 be necessary. On the first point, namely whether my right honourable friend would receive deputations, I should think he would be very favourable to receiving deputations on this kind of question, especially from my noble friend Lord Brockway.