§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many local authorities have made their appointments to community health councils on a Party political basis.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I hope the noble Lord will not think I am being unhelpful, but the information for which he is asking is, quite frankly, not yet available.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am a little surprised at that very unsatisfactory Answer. Is the noble Lord aware that, in a debate in this House on June 28, the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, said that to her knowledge some councils had made their appointments through the leader on a Party political basis? Surely, if the noble Baroness is able to produce this information, the Government should be able to.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I rather imagine that the noble Baroness was speaking probably from personal knowledge of a limited number of councils, or perhaps only one council. I was present in your Lordships' House and I replied to that debate, but we have no information as to what is happening in the country as a whole. As I said on that occasion, and as the noble Lord will know, it is up to local authorities to appoint their representatives in the way they think best and, as the noble Lord knows better than I do, it was the suggestion of the last Government, and we agree entirely, that local councils should appoint the best possible people and not necessarily councillors. We are hoping that councils will do that.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Baroness, who is herself Chairman of a Regional Health Authority, has made this statement, would the noble Lord look at this matter very seriously to see whether some further guidance is necessary for local councils?—because it is really a 445 complete negation of the value of community health councils if these appointments are to be made by one Party only.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, in his Question the noble Lord asks how many local authorities have made appointments on a Party political basis. Hence, I say that the Department does not know how many local authorities have made appointments on a Party political basis. The guidance has been given and I will certainly explore the practicability of giving further guidance on this matter.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that one is rather surprised at the supplementary question from the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, asking the Government to give guidance to local authorities on this issue? Surely, if autonomy has been passed to local authorities, this becomes their responsibility. Is it not correct to state, as we have time and time again, that there ought to be more power vested in local authorities on this type of issue? Why take it from them?
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not think there is any disagreement on that matter; but we, like the last Government, feel that representatives on community health councils should be drawn from the widest possible field of representation.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, do the Government suppose that local authorities will treat these appointments in any different way from those made to, for example, the governing boards of schools, which everybody knows have been made on a Party political basis ever since the machinery for these appointments was first established? Would the noble Lord agree, however, that there is sufficient interest in this matter, not only on the part of my noble friend Lady Robson, but during the debates on the National Health Service Reorganisation Bill when this point was raised—I raised it myself—for the noble Lord to agree to publish some analysis of the appointments made to the community health councils so that we can see whether this is happening as has been predicted?
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I did say to your Lordships that I will see whether we can explore the possibility of finding out exactly how the present appointments have been made. But may I remind your Lordships that the whole purpose of giving the Regional Health Authority three places to fill on the community health councils was to try to redress any tendency that may occur in the appointing of exclusively council people.
§ LADY RUTHVEN OF FREELANDMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he knows for certain that the appointments are not made politically? I know of certain appointments by local authorities—I have one in writing which I can produce for the Minister to see—where the appointments of the local authorities were entirely on a political basis.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I have said that I will take note of this point, but I remind your Lordships that out of the 207 community health councils which are to be appointed, at the time we had the debate following the Motion of the noble Lady about a week ago, some 117 had been appointed and there are only 90 remaining to be appointed. By now many of them will have done so. But I will pursue this matter, to see whether any further guidance can be given to local authorities.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, with respect, in view of the interest shown by noble Lords on all sides of the House, would it not be possible to ask a direct question of the Regional Health Authorities, to ask how many appointments are made on a Party political basis?
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord and I shall see whether something further can be done. We agree entirely with the last Government that representation should come from a very wide field.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, would not my noble friend agree that it is very difficult to detect with any certainty an individual's political affiliations unless he is a member of a Party?
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, that is perfectly true.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, if my noble friend makes inquiries on the 447 lines suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, about the political complexion of people appointed to the community health councils, will he at the same time inquire about the political complexion of people who have been appointed to far more important posts in the Health Service under its reorganisation by the last Government? Is he aware of the fact that he will find that most of the people who have been appointed to important chairmanships are Tories?
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I think I must confine myself to the Question as put before your Lordships and say that we are dealing with community health councils; and on that matter I will see what can be done.