HL Deb 04 July 1974 vol 353 cc346-8

3.12 p.m.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in the event of a decision to have a referendum relating to the E.E.C. both Houses of Parliament will be consulted on the form of question to be placed before the electors.

THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH)

My Lords, this would be considered in the context of the enabling legislation that would be required.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, does my noble friend realise that that is a most unsatisfactory Answer because of its ambiguity? I am asking a plain question. I want to know whether both Houses of Parliament are to be consulted on the form of the question. What has that to do with what my noble friend has mentioned?

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, the Election Manifesto on which the present Government were elected made it clear that at the conclusion of the renegotiation the British people would be consulted either by a General Election or by a referendum. The Answer which I have given is what, in fact, would be the position if the referendum course was chosen, which is what the Question asks.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, apart from the question of the renegotiations (if indeed they ever take place or even if they result in anything fruitful, which I am renegotiations (if indeed they ever take am very doubtful about), I want to know whether, irrespective of the renegotiation context, both Houses of Parliament will be consulted on the form of the question. Has the form of the question been considered by the Government?

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, if the British people are consulted by means of a referendum, there would have to be legislation, as I have already indicated. Indeed, in the case of the Northern Ireland (Border Poll) Act 1972, the question appeared in the Schedule; but I repeat that it depends on the method of consultation chosen at the time.

LORD WADE

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that it may be very difficult to devise a question which calls for a simple answer, "Yes" or "No", and that opinions may range from those who, although they may be satisfied with the negotiations, may still feel that, in any event, Britain should be taken out of the Common Market, to those who, although they may be dissatisfied, nevertheless feel it essential that Britain should remain in? In those circumstances, how can one ask for a simple "Yes" or "No"?

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, I think this is a matter that will have to be looked at at the time.

LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURY

My Lords, will the noble Lord be a little more forthcoming to his noble friend who sits behind him, bearing in mind that if a referendum takes place both Houses of Parliament ought to be consulted? When the ordinary ballot form for a General Election was re-worded prior to the last General Election, Parliament laid down the laws. Surely Parliament must be consulted; it must not be left to the Labour Party.

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, I have, with respect, already answered that precise point. The fact is that if the method of consultation with the British people which is chosen is a referendum, Parliament will be consulted.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that for a considerable time the Labour Party complained about Mr. Heath not having consulted the electors, and that Mr. Heath never even consulted Members of Parliament until he asked for a decision as to whether or not we should accept entry into the Common Market? There was no consultation, and he has been blamed time and again, in the most harsh language and with the utmost severity, because he failed to consult. Are we to understand that the Labour Government have to follow his line?

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, with respect, my noble friend would be mistaken if he took that view. I have already said on a number of occasions this afternoon that the British people will be consulted.

LORD SEGAL

My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that the whole idea of a referendum is a very dangerous importation from the Continent of Europe against which all our enthusiastic anti-Marketeers ought to set their faces very sternly?

LORD DAVIES OF LEEK

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the anti-Marketeers are against going into Europe, from which we caught the fashion of a referendum?

LORD O'HAGAN

My Lords, would the Government admit that the form of the question may well be irrelevant if there is not a previous campaign of information by Her Majesty's Government as to the likely outcome of answering a question one way or the other. Will the noble Lord undertake that Her Majesty's Government will, in the event of a referendum, give serious thought to a campaign to inform the British people as to the actual terms on which they are being consulted?

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, I will draw what the noble Lord has said to the attention of my right honourable friend the Foreign Minister.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, can the noble Lord assure us that, for the purposes of the referendum, Peers will be enfranchised?

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, I had better not risk an answer to that question without some notice.

LORD BOOTHBY

My Lords, will the noble Lord give an undertaking that in no circumstances will a referendum be held?

LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH

My Lords, in view of what I have just said I think it might be a little difficult for me to give that assurance.