PRIME MINISTER: ADVISERS' SALARIES (Hansard, 3 July 1974)

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD)
My Lords, Dr. Bernard Donoughue's salary is £9,828 per annum. The estimated aggregate annual cost of the salaries of the members of the unit which he heads is £35,000.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend this question? This is taxpayers' money, I presume. Is 282 it necessary to bring in these people, these alleged omniscient and omnipotent outsiders, because we no longer have any faith in the Civil Service? Is it not possible for members of the Civil Service to provide the expertise, as in the past?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, these salaries are paid out of public funds, but I am sure my noble friend will recognise the role of a career civil servant in serving with loyalty Governments of any political complexion. They provide what is called official advice, but I think it is being increasingly recognised that Prime Ministers and Ministers require a more political appraisal of events and proposals as they are brought forward—and I use the word "political" with a small "p".

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, am I to understand, therefore, that they are political advisers? Is it not possible for the Labour Party at Transport House to provide political advice? Do they not have the expertise? Is my noble friend aware that I was in four Governments and never required any outside advice, and that I managed to get on pretty well? If there is any challenge against that, I should like to hear it. But why is this necessary? Why have these jobs for the boys"? And when a new Government come in, are these people dismissed'? Is this the American system?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, it is not the American system; and, so far as my noble friend is concerned, I am sure the House recognises that he is unique. Previous Prime Ministers and Ministers have appointed advisers in one form or another. Sir Winston Churchill, in the war-time Government, had Lord Cherwell; and other Prime Ministers have appointed advisers. I think there is general recognition of the fact that, with the amount of paper and pressure that one now has, official advice, worthy though it may be, may not meet the full need; and that therefore there is something to be said for having political advisers—and again I am using the word with a small "p"—available.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I think it is a pity that my noble friend should have furnished the example of Lord Cherwell as an adviser to Churchill. Does he not know that, historically, it 283 has been proved with the utmost accuracy that Cherwell was a calamity?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I do not think I will follow my noble friend in that piece of history.

§ LORD BLYTON
My Lords, will my noble friend assure the House that we are not developing a system of "place men"?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
No, my Lords.

§ LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRAN
My Lords, I do not want to embarrass the noble Lord in any way, but is he able to say, without notice, how many of these political advisers are giving advice to the Prime Minister on political matters relating to Europe?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, this is an advisory unit which no doubt gives advice to the Prime Minister on all aspects of public affairs.

§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEK
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that Parliament, taking the other place and this House together, no longer seems to be able to make any decisions? It merely acquiesces; it does not legislate. Is my noble friend aware, looking at the whole gamut of the other place and this, that political, economic, scientific and other advisers can be found in these two places with political nous as good as any that can be found outside with dandy intellectualism?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I have no intention of dealing with the other place, but I would agree with my noble friend that this House has a great deal of nous about most things. However, whether it is necessarily the nous that a Prime Minister should rely upon is a matter for comment.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I have no wish to disturb the extreme conservatism displayed on the Benches opposite? Is he also aware that we on these Benches think the Prime Minister needs all the help he can get?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I thank the noble and radical Lord for that constructive assistance. But, my Lords, we shall wait and see.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend this further question? If the Prime Minister wants advice, why does he not apply to me? He will not have to pay for it and, what is more, he will be far better off.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I will see that the most generous suggestion of my noble friend is conveyed to my right honourable friend.

§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, so far as I gather. Mr. Wedgwood Benn has also appointed some political advisers who are outside the Civil Service? Will the noble Lord agree that this practice must not get too prevalent? Otherwise, it might run riot, because we do not know what the salaries are.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I am not quite sure where the noble Viscount is seeking to take us, but I will study what he has said and see whether I need to write to him.

§ LORD HANKEY
My Lords, on a more serious note, may we take it that the advisers will be in close touch with the Departments which deal with the subjects on which they advise? Otherwise, there might be some danger in a duality of advice to the Prime Minister. One's mind goes back to certain periods before the war. And can we take it that the advisers will be subject to the Official Secrets Act?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I can give the noble Lord that assurance. They are subject to the Official Secrets Act and they are in constant contact with all the Departments of State. While these people give advice to the Prime Minister, this does not in any way question the validity of the official advice that is provided by the career civil servants.