§ 3.0 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider it wise that council houses should no longer be constructed with fireplaces but should rely for heat solely on electricity and gas.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, all new local authority dwellings must contain an installation or appliances capable of meeting the minimum Parker Morris standard of heating. There are many different systems of heating which can satisfy that requirement, and they are not confined to electricity and gas. The choice of system is a matter for each local housing authority.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask him whether he would agree that to all intents and purposes the electricity and gas authorities are really monopolies in which the unions can hold the public to ransom, by the cutting-off of heat and light especially in the winter, which may cause the deaths of old people? Though I was pleased to hear that there are alternative systems, would it be possible for the noble Lord to say what those alternative systems are? Apart from fireplaces and paraffin stoves, I can think of no alternative system.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, if a local authority chooses to install something other than solid fuel heating at the outset but thinks it right to provide a flue in addition, it is free to do so.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, would my noble friend confirm that it is obligatory to have some method of ventilation when gas or any other fuel is burnt inside a house, and that a flue is therefore essential?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, if a flue such as the noble Viscount has 287 referred to in his Question is installed, it only provides ventilation for the one room to which it is connected.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that that is better than providing no ventilation at all and that, especially in rural areas—this may not apply in city areas—if one has a fireplace one can at least get wood?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, of course I agree that it is better than having no flue at all.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware of the fact that, when a council decides to build a house without a coal fire, it does so on the advice of its official architects and other official advisers, and does not this Question show the great value of having the views of a political adviser such as the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard?
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, in view of the probability that all forms of energy, including electricity, gas and coal, will become much more expensive, would it not be advisable for the Government to recommend to local authorities proper insulation of the houses which they build, and also for them to examine the question of centralised heating installations? Is the noble Lord aware of the enormous amount of energy which is being wasted at power stations all over the country which, in Scandinavia, is usually piped to the houses in the vicinity?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I am sure that all Governments—as many Members of this House do—give much advice to local authorities.
LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTONMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that last winter those people living in North London had no gas, and this winter they had practically no electricity, and that the provision of some other form of heating in a council house would be a wise idea, as next winter both gas and electricity may be cut off?
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, would my noble friend also bear in mind—though I am the last person who should say this—that last winter they had no coal either?