§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their estimate of the percentage of vehicles now exceeding 50 m.p.h. on trunk roads and how many drivers have been warned or prosecuted by the police.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I regret that no representative speed measurements are available for trunk roads. In the period December 8 to December 31, 4,674 drivers in England and Wales were reported by the police for exceeding 50 m.p.h. on all types of road. The corresponding figures for Scotland are not available.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, whereas the vast majority of drivers are still conscientiously trying to keep to the limit, there are an increasing number who are now ignoring it? May I suggest that this tendency will possibly grow, unless strict monitoring is undertaken by the police, and swingeing fines, or even the withdrawal of licences, in the event of transgression, are imposed?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, fines and penalties are not a matter for Her Majesty's Government, of course. I am sure that as long as the general public see and understand the necessity for fuel saving, they will do their best. The police are certainly reporting a large number of drivers, as these figures indicate.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, is it not wrong for us to talk about 440 swingeing fines and withdrawing licences when each one of these cases ought to be decided by the magistrates on the particular merits of the individual case?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON; My Lords, what Back-Bench Peers discuss and talk about is no concern of mine. The magistrates will indeed take the point that the noble Lord has made.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is it due to my noble friend's influence that Scotland has got away with it?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONNo, my Lords. There is a particular reason why the Scottish Office have been unable to supply the figures.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, what does the noble Lord mean by saying that what Back-Bench Peers say is no concern of his? I hope they are of concern to him.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord. Lord Shackleton, that I was referring only to remarks about penalties and fines in courts.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, would the noble Lord accept that while the argument for incentive to save petrol applies to individual owner drivers, it may be less impressive on the drivers, let us say, of commercial lorries, who do not necessarily worry very much about their bosses' petrol?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, it is not the bosses' petrol: it is the petrol which the country is importing; and it is the country which is asking for the saving.
§ LORD ROBERTHALLMy Lords, is it not invariably the case that a law that is seen not to be enforced gradually loses the respect of the public, and is it not a fact that respect for the 50 m.p.h. limit is much less now than when it was a voluntary matter?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the law is being enforced. The figures I indicated over a period of three weeks from December 8 to December 31, 4,674 are very heavy figures—much higher than would normally be the case for people speeding at over 70 m.p.h.
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, does not all this prove that Lady Macleod was right the other day in what she had to say on this subject, and would it not be very much better to go back now to the old speed limit?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think it would be the Government's intention to go back to the old speed limit as soon as we see that there are ample supplies of fuel and the country is not likely to be in danger.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, would my noble friend publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the extent of the fines and other penalties which are exacted by other European countries who in some ways are less short of oil and energy than we are?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I do not know whether we can be responsible for collecting information about fines in other countries. In due course we shall be able to report on the fines imposed in this country.