§ 2.34 p.m.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether measures will be taken to prevent the National Coal Board from tipping coal waste on the foreshore in County Durham, which has had the effect of destroying many of the beaches in that area.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government recognise the concern about this long-standing and difficult problem, which is under consideration by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and my noble friend the Secretary of State for Energy. Everything possible is being done to reach an early conclusion.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that this long-standing trouble has been long-standing for many, many years, and neither this Government nor previous Governments have made any effort to deal with the situation? Is she further aware that almost every one of the beaches from Sunderland to Hartlepool has been polluted, and the only excuse offered by the National Coal Board is that to tip the coal further out at sea would involve expenditure without regard to the position of surrounding local authorities who have to deal with the rubbish on the beaches from time to time, and thus incur considerable expenditure? Why cannot the Government take drastic action and deal with the matter?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I am aware that this is a very difficult problem, and a very serious one. I have not only studied the papers but have seen photographs and maps of the area. These illustrate very clearly what people in this part of the country are suffering. I cannot add anything further to my original reply, except to say that we hope that we shall be able to reach an early solution to this matter.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that one of the great difficulties is that if this waste is 366 tipped further out to sea, it will affect the spawning grounds of fish?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, that may well be a point. But the matter is under active discussion at present between the National Coal Board and the local authorities concerned.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, without meaning to give any offence, may I ask the noble Baroness to pay not the slightest attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, was suggesting: that if the National Coal Board tipped the waste further out at sea it would affect the spawning grounds of fish? Tipping will not have the slightest effect. Many inshore fishermen, the wives and families of trawlermen in this area, are concerned about the condition of some of the beaches, particularly the beach at Crimden Dene, one of the finest beauty spots in the North of England, attracting thousands of people from all over the country. This beach is being rapidly despoiled. Is the noble Baroness aware that when she speaks about this being a difficult problem, she really does not understand the position. It is not difficult at all; it is a serious problem, but it is not difficult if the National Coal Board can be told to do the right thing, and to do it as soon as possible. Otherwise there are going to be a lot more Questions of this sort. Why cannot the Government do something about this?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I am aware that this is a long-standing problem. One of the difficulties is that the National Coal Board have an existing use to tip this waste on these beaches, which has existed since before 1947. The matter is under discussion; it is a question of reaching agreement between the National Coal Board, the local authorities and, of course, the Department of Energy.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, do Her Majesty's Government mean that because this part of the coast is far away from the South-East, therefore it is not important? Or does the noble Baroness mean that this matter requires intense and serious investigation to decide how one can stop tipping? I should have thought this could be done very simply.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I am perfectly well aware that the tipping is not going on on the South coast, but 367 near the coalfields in Durham. The matter has been under examination. It is a complicated problem, and whatever solution is reached will involve the expenditure of a great deal of money.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, does the noble Baroness mean it is extremely complicated because there are three elements involved—the sea, land and coal? I should have thought that was a very simple matter.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, in view of the statement of the noble Baroness that to deal with the problem would involve the expenditure of a vast amount of money, would she be kind enough to inform me, perhaps by letter or perhaps in your Lordships' House, what is the total expenditure that would be involved and incurred by the National Coal Board if this matter were attended to?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, on the detailed question of the total amount of money I shall have to write to the noble Lord on this point. But if we are talking about buying out the existing use, this is a question of compensation, which is always expensive. So far as my own Department is concerned, we have said that we will give an 85 per cent. grant to the local authorities to clear the derelict land.