HL Deb 29 January 1974 vol 349 cc171-3

2.49 p.m.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any knowledge of the alleged establishment of branches in the United Kingdom of the Central Intelligence Agency of the U.S.A. for the purpose of checking so-called "Subversive elements" within our trade unions and elsewhere, and including the maintenance of headquarters for the penetration of Commonwealth countries in Africa; and, if so, whether such activity is with their consent.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD WINDLESHAM)

My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Home Secretary said in a Written Answer in another place on January 24, it is a long-established practice that security matters are not discussed in public. He stated, however, that any activities of foreign intelligence agents in this country are kept under close scrutiny. Any evidence of improper activities is followed up at once.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, while thanking the Leader of the House for that answer, may I ask him this question. Is not one of the difficulties of this problem that Governments and Embassies always deny knowledge of intelligence services? Is this not a matter which is of deep interest to our people? Is the noble Lord aware of the reservations which The Times expressed in its article on January 19, and its quite responsible correspondence since, about the validity of the denial which the American Embassy issued?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, the noble Lord referred to the statement made by the American Embassy—I have seen a copy of it—on January 18. The Home Secretary has already said that the Government fully accept the statement made by the United States Embassy that there is no truth in recently published allegations.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, arising from the second part of the Question, while many of us have not been convinced by the public appearance of Mr. Copeland which gave rise to the article in The Times, may I ask whether the Minister has seen the much more serious statement by Simon Winchester, the correspondent of the Guardian on January 14, and the quotations from the book, which are much more responsible, by Victor Marchetti who was in the C.I.A. until 1969, about the C.I.A. headquarters in London to discover subversion in Africa? Even if the Government are not prepared to say that that exists, will they look very carefully into any allegations that there is such a headquarters in London applying to the internal affairs of Commonwealth countries in Africa?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, I have seen the report in the Guardian, as well as the one in The Times to which the noble Lord referred earlier. All I would say about it is that it appears to relate to events which may have taken place several years ago.

LORD HALE

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this was a front page attributed article in The Times giving a large number of details? In view of the fact that the Civil Service has increased, is increasing and ought to be diminished, could not some detailed dementi have been given to The Times, and indeed to the Guardian, as well as to the Sunday Telegraph, which also made further allegations last Sunday?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, the United States Embassy made a specific statement on January 18 in the course of which they said: There is absolutely no truth in the allegations that there has been an influx of American intelligence men into Britain in recent weeks or months. Furthermore, there are no American agents in the United Kingdom gathering information on activities of the British trade union movement. As I have said, both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have fully accepted that statement.

LORD HALE

My Lords, now that we are all working happily together in the Bon Marché could the noble Lord say whether any special facilities are being given to M. Herculé Poirot or Inspector Maigret?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, the noble Lord has made his point. We must leave it there.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, the Minister said that these events occurred several years ago. Is that quite true? Is it not the case that Mr. Marchetti has said quite recently that these activities have been going on regarding African countries—and I quote: winning over black African skins, financing newspapers, stirring up trouble of one sort and another in Africa, and the British let them."? Does not that refer to incidents much more recent than several years ago to which the Minister referred?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, I understand these are allegations made in a book by a former member of the C.I.A. which is now the subject of court proceedings in the United States. I do not think it would be proper to discuss it in this connection.

LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELAND

My Lords, as these subversive elements are on an international basis, is it possible to counter them without some international organisation?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, that is an extremely important point, of course, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising it. So many international terrorism and guerrilla operations are now conducted on an international basis that they need to be countered by international action and co-operation in the intelligence field.