§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what conclusions on immigration were reached during the visit of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office, to India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, particularly as regards Asians from East Africa who hold British passports and the dependants and relatives of heads of family already settled in the United Kingdom.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS)My Lords, as my right honourable friend explained in the debate in another place on December 6, my honourable friend went to the subcontinent to examine at first hand various aspects of our immigration control. These 2 were particularly the procedures for ensuring that only genuine dependants are admitted and the scope for closer inter-Governmental co-operation in countering the evil trade in illegal immigration. He did not go to raise the question of the United Kingdom passport holders from East Africa. My right honourable friend is considering the conclusions to be drawn from the visit; I can say at this stage that we believe it to have been very useful.
My honourable friend was able to discuss these matters in a spirit of practical co-operation with the three Governments. He derived great benefit from being able to see at first hand the work of the entry clearance officers and to review with our representatives in the three countries some of the problems with which they have to deal.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Viscount for that full reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that all of us support the efforts to prevent this abominable, profiteering racket in bringing illegal immigrants to this country and that we support what Mr. Lane has done in that respect? However, did he not take the opportunity, on his visit to India, Bangladesh and Pakistan, to deal with the problem of family division? Is the noble Viscount aware that, while a woman with her family may come to join her husband in this country, a man may not come to this country even though he has sent his wife and children in advance? When is this inhumanity to be ended?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I am glad to hear the noble Lord's support on what I am sure we all agree is a dreadful evil about this illegal immigration. The answer to his second question is, Yes; in fact the point was raised. It is a fairly complicated one and I think the noble Lord is probably mainly interested in the Ugandan or Stateless husbands who have U.K.P.H. wives and families here. This point was raised with the Indian Minister by my honourable friend, who explained the situation in the same terms as he did in another place last December. That is, it is open to husbands whose wives are here to apply to the nearest British representative for an entry certificate, and any such applications will be very carefully considered in the light of all the individual circumstances, including compassionate ones. Furthermore, my honourable friend made sure that our representatives in Bombay, the place chiefly involved, fully understood the Government's policy and the procedure for prompt handling of these applications. But as to the general rule that husbands are not to be admitted on right of their wives, the situation is exactly the same as it was in 1969 when the previous Administration had to stop this particular practice.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, while it is open to these husbands to apply, will the noble Viscount say whether any priority will be given to the husbands who have been separated from their wives and children in this country since the exodus in October, 1972? Can he also confirm that his honourable friend visited, among other places, Islamabad? Has his honourable friend any suggestions to make for improvement of the procedures which, as the noble Viscount puts it, are designed to ensure that only genuine dependants are admitted—bearing in mind that some people are going to have to wait until 1975 before they are even interviewed for an entry certificate to join the rest of their families in the United Kingdom?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, we made a substantial gesture last February in allowing 300 of the Stateless or Uganda men into this country as part of our assistance to the United Nations Commissioner. I should have thought we have done quite a bit. I have 4 already said that applications will be considered. Certainly my honourable friend went to Islamabad. I know about the long delays, but this is a matter more properly addressed to my noble friend Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, which I believe has the matter to some extent in hand.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount whether Mr. David Lane explored the possibilities of stopping illegal immigration at the source—at the country from which they come—because it seems to me that that is a far better way than trying to stop it after the illegal immigrants have entered this country?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSYes, my Lords; as I said in my original Answer, that was exactly one of the main points which he went into.
§ LORD HYLTONMy Lords, can my noble friend confirm or deny that there are still some 80 families of Uganda Asians who are split between Britain and various Continental European countries, and a further number, thought to be between 300 and 500, who are split between Britain and India? The splitting arises because some members of the families do not hold British passports.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not know the exact details of numbers. It is an extremely complicated matter because some of the husbands are Indian, some are Ugandan, and some are Stateless. Probably the Indian ones are in India. Where the Ugandan and Stateless ones are, I am afraid I cannot tell my noble friend in detail.
§ LORD ROBBINSMy Lords, can the noble Viscount confirm whether the orders of magnitude mentioned by the noble Lord who put the last supplementary question are approximately correct, or whether we are dealing with something much larger?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I would think they are approximately correct. What I have not seen are the figures for the Indian husbands.
§ LORD HYLTONMy Lords, may I ask whether my noble friend is aware of 5 the very great concern in many parts of this House precisely because the Government's concession of last February has not dealt with the whole problem, which it appeased to deal with? Moreover, is he aware that, of the breadwinners who are separated from their families and who are in India, the majority, I am informed, are now destitute because they cannot get jobs in India?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, this is exactly why it is important to get these matters clear. In the first place, the gesture we made was a contribution to the solution of an international problem, not one solely to be dealt with by this country. We were dealing with Ugandan citizens or Stateless persons. Secondly, it is not correct to say that the breadwinners are destitute. I think there is some difficulty in getting certain jobs if one is not an Indian national, but a number of these breadwinners are Indian nationals and have no difficulty in getting jobs.
§ LORD GARDINERMy Lords, in this connection is not one of the hardships that women suffer the difficulty of finding out what their position is? Is the Minister aware (though there is no reason why he should be) that I was speaking to the Home Office only this morning about a British-born subject who has worked here all her life, fallen in love with a Portuguese national living and working in France, and that the Home Office have said that they cannot possibly tell her whether or not, if she marries, he can come and live with her in this country?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not suppose they can do so over the telephone because these things tend to be extremely complicated. If the noble and learned Lord wishes to write to me or to my honourable friend on this subject I will certainly look at the case, but I do not think it has anything very much to do with my honourable friend's visit to India.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, can the noble Viscount say, finally perhaps, whether the Government have a completely closed mind on this issue or whether they are still prepared to extend wholly the partial concession that they made to these people in February of last year?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I imagine that my noble friend is not speaking about the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, but about split families. I have said that applications will be considered if they are made to the nearest British representative.